π§ From Engineer to Sr. Product Manager: This is Anand's Story
Meet Anand - He's a SHINE alum who successfully made the jump from Engineer to Sr. PM but felt like he needed a boost from a coach to deliver on his newly earned title.
He's such a fun and smart guy, loved catching up to hear how things have been going in his career.
We talk about:
What it *really* took to shift to his first PM role (hint: 18 months and a boatload of persistence and consistent self-advocacy!)
How his early career experience as a highly technical engineer set him up for success in Product
The challenges that stemmed from being a capable engineer now doing product work
The choice to get his Executive MBA and how it helped in the career shift
How networking and cold outreach has been his secret weapon of career growth
How he managed to get a 70%+ hit rate on cold networking outreach to Product folks in his community
His leadership of a local entrepreneurial networking group and how it's helping him stay sharp as a PM
And more!
Resources from this episode:
Anand presenting Dish Hello - one of his FIRST initiatives as a Product Manager at Dish
HBR Strategy: When Your Business Needs a Second Growth Engine
HBR: The Five Competitive Forces That Shape Strategy (AKA Porter's 5 Forces)
Ready to SHINE in your Product Management career? β¨
Learn more about my SHINE 1:1 coaching program for Product Managers seeking promotion and greater leadership impact. It's designed to help you grow your confidence, stand out as a strategic thinker, and take the next big step in your career.
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Anand T (00:00)
can read all the books, but I think in the end, was realizing that every product is And the toolkit you talking about.
You can even have the toolkit, but it's knowledge of what tool to use when. That's where I think I was really struggling.
that was a big mind shift like.
the tools or the frameworks out there to help me but in the end the mindset or the way you have to think like a PM is what we need to develop and work on So that's the exercise we did over and over and over with all the projects after that.
Jess Sherlock (00:29)
Welcome to another episode of AFTER THE CERT the career podcast for product managers who've collected all the certifications and taken all the courses and still feel stuck in their product career. I'm your host, Jess Sherlock, product management career coach. I know firsthand what it feels like to be overwhelmed, lonely, and stuck in your product career. And I'm on a mission to help you feel confident and empowered to take the lead your product career and achieve your unique career goals.
on me for practical and actionable advice, plus relatable stories from PMs navigating the messy middle of their career.
And remember, if you're feeling stuck with your product management job search, worried about making a great impression during your first 90 days in a new product job, or you want to position yourself for a promotion at work, I'm here to help. You can check out my coaching programs at jesssherlock.com/apply.
and book time on my calendar so we can chat.
Let's get into it.
Jess Sherlock (01:25)
Well, I was looking back, we started working together. back in July of 2022. So right about three years ago on the dot. β Isn't that insane? And we for a long time met weekly. We went up and down over the years. But all said, we have worked together for...
Anand T (01:36)
that is, yeah.
Jess Sherlock (01:48)
if my count is correct, over 60 sessions, if you can believe it, six zero.
Anand T (01:54)
Am I still the longest tenure? I was for a long time.
Jess Sherlock (01:59)
Ooh,
I should have like a leaderboard. β John might have you beat if John's listening. He was a little bit longer or Megan, but it's close. I'd have to really do some comparison, but I'm so glad to have you on. So obviously you and I know each other very well, but the goal of the podcast is to let product managers hear from other product managers who
Anand T (02:07)
So, yeah.
Jess Sherlock (02:23)
unique paths into product, stumbled into it, didn't necessarily expect to land there in their career. And so let's start by learning a little bit about you and then we'll jump into talking about your career. tell us about yourself. Who are you as a human?
Anand T (02:37)
I grew up in India, central India. It's a very small town. And I did my undergrad in India, moved here for grad school back in 2001,
very interesting transition from remote India to remote US.
Jess Sherlock (02:54)
Yeah, yeah. what was the draw to South Dakota? How did that even get on your radar?
Anand T (02:59)
couple of people I knew went to School of Mines in South Dakota. I did get into one of the schools in New York, but when I compared the living expenses, it was an easy choice for me to go to South Dakota. for $2,000, you get a basement New York and you get a whole house in South Dakota.
Jess Sherlock (03:12)
For sure, for sure.
Mm-hmm. you're...
Anand T (03:22)
I did
there in computer science. β My bachelor's was obviously in computer science too and applications. So I did my masters in South Dakota. Very good school by the way. So I worked with the USGIS.
We actually work on some neural networks, which is the new AI, like today's everybody talks about. So my background is a little bit of that. But yeah, that's my old profession.
Jess Sherlock (03:50)
Yeah. So at that point in time, what did you expect to be doing? We know what you're doing now. You're obviously in product, but going to undergrad and doing a master's program in computer science, safe to assume you figured you'd be an engineer or what was the plan there?
Anand T (04:06)
Yeah, no, that was the plan to be an engineer. I was very big follower of open source community. I decided to become an expert on Linux kernel and β file system and that's what helped me to get the job at that point. So I was very, very technical engineer. I worked
Jess Sherlock (04:08)
Yeah.
Anand T (04:29)
on the edge of hardware and software. So I knew a lot about hardware β while I worked with ARM architecture, which is used by all the mobile phones today, MIPS architecture, which is used in OLS, like set-top boxes, β routers, anything like IoT devices, they're all MIPS.
Jess Sherlock (04:31)
Okay.
Yeah. So as a kid, were you, were you a tinkerer? Like tell me a little bit about your childhood and what were some of those signals that now might look obvious, right? Looking back, but
Anand T (04:55)
Yes, I was.
So I'll tell you a story.
So my father has this old Panasonic radio. It's like a boombox, you know, with one big speaker and the cassette tape. It was a metal grill and I just took and poked in it. Kind of ruined it. Yeah.
Jess Sherlock (05:11)
yeah.
Right in the cone of the speaker.
I bet your dad was thrilled.
Anand T (05:21)
Oh yeah, he was... But I was able to fix it after a few Well, he ended up buying a new You know, once you paper, it sounds really bad.
Jess Sherlock (05:23)
Yeah, so you.
good, a few year turnaround.
that's amazing. I, for those of you who don't know, I have a whole episode of my background, but I went to audio engineering school. very familiar with how critical the cone in a speaker is.
Anand T (05:44)
Respect.
Jess Sherlock (05:45)
Okay, so you go to undergrad for computer science, graduate school for computer science in the US. β Tell us about your career journey, your first few jobs, β what sorts of things you were working on and what you were learning along the way in your career.
Anand T (06:01)
So you know it, but I think for your audience, this company I'm working with is my first job. So I just completed 20 years.
Jess Sherlock (06:10)
20
years. What was your gift? Did you get a gift?
Anand T (06:13)
So at 15 years you can park closer to the door. It really helps when I go to headquarters.
Jess Sherlock (06:19)
I bet, I bet
So tell us about that 20 years. Like I said, I know a bit, but what I really love about your career journey, I'll do a little bit of a spoiler here, but I'll let you tell the full story, is that are a product manager who came from a very technical engineering background. And that's a really common path. I didn't come from that path. I came from more of a creative direction, UX research, UX design direction.
Anand T (06:44)
Mm-hmm.
Jess Sherlock (06:47)
But plenty of folks come into product from engineering. what I often say is that every product manager has a slant. So for someone like me, have to actively resist the slant or resist my default of getting into the wireframing and getting into the design of the user journey. Now, if I don't have a designer on my team, it can be a helpful skill set, right? I can move things forward even without a designer. β But with you, I know...
Anand T (07:10)
Yeah.
Jess Sherlock (07:13)
in your career, you ended up in product. And as we work together, really had to work to correct this talk about the sorts of things you were working on as an engineer in those 20 years and kind of when and how product came on your radar. And then we can dive into what did it look like after making the shift to product.
Anand T (07:35)
in 2004, when I joined as an engineer one dish EchoStar today, right? We were actually were a growing company. DVR was freshly introduced. They were looking for somebody who can come and work on hard Setup know like more about the Linux kernel because they were also moving from our task to Linux kernel.
So somebody who can do drivers, work with SOCs, or system on chip companies. now looking back, you know, with the DVR and hard drive, I used to actually go through customer complaints and understand like what are the problems they're facing and what they're complaining about.
I want to tell you a story because it's very funny. There was one complaint. This lady called and she was saying, I cannot fast forward.
Jess Sherlock (08:20)
Please.
Anand T (08:27)
And we were like, what's that? So we looked at the logs and everything. I'm like, everything seems fine. What's going on? So then we start talking to her. And then she was watching. And then she's like, look. And she'll.
tell us like I cannot fast forward and I'm like I see why we were on the live edge so we were watching live TV
And this is where like that β aha or the bulb went I'm like, I see why she's confused because nobody's telling that she's watching live. So now...
Jess Sherlock (08:57)
Yeah, she's hitting
the end. So she just nothing in the system saying, hey, here's why you can't do that.
Anand T (09:01)
Saying, yeah,
So now, if you have a dish system and you keep forwarding and you hit the live edge, β you actually put live TV. So now the customer knows they are actually watching live, so they cannot fast forward. So, didn't realize that was a product kind of little mindset, but.
Jess Sherlock (09:18)
Yeah.
I've worked with plenty of engineers in my career who just, want to be handed the next thing to build. They want to build it and then they want to be done. But I know you well enough to know that that wasn't super fulfilling for you. Like something drew you to asking these bigger questions. I remember correctly, I think what happened is like this kept happening more frequently with you where
Anand T (09:46)
Exactly,
yeah.
Jess Sherlock (09:47)
Every project you're going, why are we doing this? Who's this for? How does this work? So tell us about the point. So like how long were you in this role of various engineering roles until you finally like realize this was product?
Anand T (09:51)
Yeah.
So I was like 15 years in that role. more I grew one to like all the way to principle, when I start to work more on the system architecting set up boxes and new features, that's when I think it started to hit It's like, I can optimize my solution very well.
build it very robust, it will never fail, very stable. But if customer keep getting into these situations where they don't know how to use it, or if we are not solving the right problem, my solution, even though it's like the best in the world or state of the art, it's useless, they will not use it. And I think there was that moment like, okay, I as engineer want to solve a problem.
where I can find the right problem and who are these people who are defining the problem for me to solve today. And I think that was that moment where I was like, I need to find that group of people who actually go and find these problems. And guess what? Who were they? Yep.
Jess Sherlock (11:05)
PMs.
so for folks who are listening who work β on what you might call a balanced team, so teams where you have the PM, the engineer, designer and any other engineers and QA all working closely in a pod together, they might be surprised to hear that you had to go seek that person out. So it sounds like product wasn't close to engineering. Is that, is that what I'm hearing?
Anand T (11:28)
That was true back in the day, yes. β We were actually in totally different buildings. β What we call product team today, they were in Meridian, which is to exit down on I-25, then where we are.
Jess Sherlock (11:45)
Were they called product managers or did they have a different title?
Anand T (11:49)
think they were product managers back then. Yeah, they were product managers. But product slash program, I mean, it was all jumbled. But they did, the title was product managers. we did not interact with them. It was mostly the leaders, the PM leaders and the engineering leaders will talk about what they want to build for the next generation. will get like a set of requirements sometimes.
Jess Sherlock (11:53)
Okay.
Anand T (12:15)
β And then from there we will start to build. there was no like every day, just for example, like now I am sitting in engineering building. Like if I go outside, there's all engineers, I can walk to them, talk, they can come to me anytime and ask like, hey, what is this? Explain to me why we need this feature anything they want to write. Or like, hey, we should do this differently than what are you thinking? It might be better.
Jess Sherlock (12:37)
Yeah.
Anand T (12:42)
So we bridged that gap pretty nicely.
Jess Sherlock (12:43)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, that's amazing because even if I think back on my own career over the last 10, 15 years, not only has the role of product management started to come into its own and be much more, it's still inconsistent a little bit from company to company, but more and more we see these consistent best practices, consistent use of titles, consistent agile ceremonies from team to team. But it's interesting. You got to witness that both at a
Anand T (13:03)
Yeah.
Jess Sherlock (13:14)
micro level in your team as they were evolving, but also it was happening at a macro level in all organizations really, this sort of period of digital transformation and agile becoming the standard way of operating when you're building software. so, yeah, so it's very interesting that you had this realization personally wondering where these product ideas were coming from and you had to go seek those people out. β
Anand T (13:30)
Exactly.
Jess Sherlock (13:42)
But now, if that were to happen today, it would have been a much easier path for you to identify who that person is. Yeah.
Anand T (13:47)
Exactly. yeah.
Yeah, they all know me very well.
Jess Sherlock (13:53)
Got it. Okay. And so that's really cool that you got to be there as an engineer when it started to become more product focus was around the time you started to express interest in product. tell us what happened because I want to point out here that people will reach out to me often saying that they're interested in becoming a PM. How should I start? And in my opinion, the easiest path, if it's possible, the
the easiest path is going to be to try to shift into doing some product work at your current company. And that might look like actually being able to manage getting a different title and getting reassigned to product. But even if it's just keep the title you have and start helping product managers, right? Ask them, hey, can I come to your...
sprint planning and just listen in. Can I help you QA new features? Can I help you go chat with stakeholders to get questions answered? I'm curious, it sounds like you were able to make that shift and you've ended up staying there, spoiler alert, but what did that shift look like officially? Were you able to just ask for it and get the new title or what actually happened to shift into product officially?
Anand T (14:47)
Perfect.
First of all, I think I would have saved at least a couple of years of work if I met you earlier. Because I went through this oh, I want go certification path or MBA. We can talk about that too, But you are right. I think the best path is a team.
where you can start either sitting with them and see what they do day to day. β And also we do a ceremony called project. So we follow Agile's every quarter we do a ceremony where a product team, engineering team comes back. That's a perfect opportunity because that's where the product team will probably give you three months of like, this is what we're looking into future. β In our company, we actually provide financial estimate like
why we are doing this, we think that this will increase viewership hour by six hours or 60 hours or 600 hours, right? Or we think this will bring X amount of customer. β And we can sit down and explain to them like how we came to that conclusion, like what will happen, all of this. So think that will be a good place to understand how this whole thing works and then ask
so when you have this transition, one of the things changed is product team start to come to our engineering offices.
And that's where I start to mingle with them. like, hey, what's going on? I will talk to them. One of the things I was doing that time, and this could be very helpful for audience, will send out messages on LinkedIn to PMs, VPs, and director of product and say, hey, I'm an engineer. I'm trying to transition into product.
would love to buy you a lunch or coffee you can give me your one hour and I just want to talk to you like what your day to day looks like met really good leaders during that
Jess Sherlock (17:03)
these people at your company folks? β these are folks at other companies. What was your hit rate? Because I think cold reach out makes people very nervous, especially folks I'm working with in my job search program. When we start talking about sending LinkedIn messages, people are like, god, that sounds so scary. honest, what was the hit rate like and what were the reactions when you'd send those notes?
Anand T (17:05)
outside. I just found on the... Yeah.
it
If you have a well-crafted β what you're asking for and why you're asking, my hit rate was actually pretty good. I will say like more than 70%. Yeah, I talked to β VPs from Gusto, Ibotta β Health Grades. There was a company, Matt, I'm trying to remember his name.
Jess Sherlock (17:37)
Really? Okay.
Anand T (17:51)
He works for Velocity Global now. β But they were making something like MindBody app, these people were so good. And I will buy the lunch and we'll meet them. We'll talk about their journey. And it was amazing. going back to, they can do that too. And even like before we start this call, I was telling a story that I met a VP of a
at some other company just and that she was happy to like talk about things. Yeah.
Jess Sherlock (18:17)
Yeah, just out in the world. were out doing something with your family,
struck up a conversation, turned out this person was a VP of product. And that's the thing. I know I tend to be pretty outgoing, although I am an introvert, which people find hard to believe. But when I am out and about, I tend to be outgoing. And that bravery tends to pay off. And I think,
Anand T (18:25)
There you go.
Jess Sherlock (18:39)
This might surprise people. don't know if this is like a horrible thing to say, but people like to talk about themselves. And so if your goal is, I just want to expand my network and get to know folks who might be able to help me at some point, Just starting a conversation, asking someone about their career journey, most people are willing to share. in my own experience, because I get a lot of messages from people asking me for various things, from introductions to information and
Anand T (18:44)
yeah, yeah.
Jess Sherlock (19:05)
The folks I tend to help the most, it's exactly what you said is, make it easy for me to help. Be specific. So don't just reach out and say, hey, do you know anybody that's hiring? But if you reach out to me and you say, hey, I'm trying to connect with people at companies in mental health tech in Colorado who are looking for a senior level or higher PM, because that would be me.
All of a sudden, I'm like, yeah, I can keep an eye out for that, right? But if you just reach out and hey, I'm looking for my next gig and you don't give me any details, it's really difficult to help. So that's really interesting to hear that you experienced that as well. That specificity really pays off.
Anand T (19:37)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
And it's a good practice. I mean, if you want to move into product, you need to learn how to prepare and have an ask, because you will be asking a lot single time. Like you're asking engineers to do the work. You're asking your leaders to approve your project. You're asking marketing to market your product. You're asking your customer experience team to give you feedback, because I mean, they will not just...
They will do their job, but they will not think about like, you know, I'm getting all this feedback about this feature. Maybe I should tell the product manager that, hey. So you have to go ask for all these things.
Jess Sherlock (20:24)
Yeah, exactly, Exactly.
And I think the other thing to recognize is not always needing something right away or rather like the best networking is in situations where you don't need something. Nobody likes a desperate networker, right? The person who shows up to a networking event, just like, do you know who's hiring? Do you know anyone who's hiring? β That's a signal that it's too late.
Anand T (20:40)
Yeah, yeah.
Jess Sherlock (20:48)
Right? So I think one of the things that you've done an exceptional job at, back when you started to shift into product, but even still is like you consistently and regularly prioritize networking and building community. And here in Colorado, we have a fantastic group called Colorado product pretty much always see you at those events. And, know, you're a familiar face, you're helpful to people and not like you go to these events, always looking to take, take, take.
Anand T (20:49)
Yeah.
Jess Sherlock (21:14)
you, I think, balance it really well with a lot of giving back to the community.
Anand T (21:15)
Yeah.
trait of building relationship, I think β it will serve well while finding a job, but it's also serve well when you do the job of product manager. Because
Some engineers work, they're very happy that a certain product PM is with them on working on the feature versus some other person, just because of the relationship they have with me. β
Jess Sherlock (21:39)
Mmm.
Yeah,
yeah. No, you're right. Being likable, this might be a controversial statement, but success in your career does have a lot to do with being likable. is relationships and it's not always about who the smartest person is. It's not always about who's delivered the best quality work. If there's a handful of people who are all pretty good, but one of those people is more likable, call it politics, call it whatever you want.
Anand T (21:53)
relationships, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Jess Sherlock (22:12)
those are the folks who tend to succeed in an organization. So there's a lot to be said for being likable. that's a, I wouldn't say it's not an easy skill to build necessarily, but if you're a naturally likable person and that's something you can lean into, it can definitely benefit you.
Anand T (22:29)
definitely yeah.
Jess Sherlock (22:30)
So it sounds like six or seven years ago, you're busting your butt as an engineer doing great work, asking a lot of questions, trying to figure out why are we doing this? Who's using this? Why don't we do it a different way? And around this time, the company was being trained formally and being a little bit more product led. So you're introduced to the product team at the organization. You start to weasel your way into conversations with those folks.
And at some point in here, you actually made the decision to get your MBA. So guess connect the dots for us on what did like literally for anyone who's listening, they might be wondering like, okay, I get the idea. You have this interest, but that feels like an impossible bridge to cross. So what did it literally look like in terms of either that MBA training or talking to your boss? Like, how did you actually go from, an engineer interested in product to I now have my first product title.
Anand T (23:29)
Yeah. β So I think I was after talking. So these are all the things I was doing during that time right? I'm talking to these leaders in the different companies asking. β
And I think that time the debate was really strong between like, do you need MBA for right now? think people say, no, you don't need MBA. But back then it was like, no, mean, half of the PMs will say, no, you have to have MBA to understand the business side of things. That's what they told me. Right. So I was like looking at certifications. β Pragmatic was one of them. did that, course.
and β also I had my first kid during that phase. First kid. Life is busy. Like I cannot do full-time MBA, forget it. So sleep, yeah. Right?
Jess Sherlock (24:16)
Your first kid. Okay. So life is busy at this stage too.
You're like, I'm barely getting a full night of sleep, let alone getting my MDA. Okay.
Anand T (24:30)
So after talking to all those things, able to get into an executive MBA program β and that was my choice because
It's not full time, you just go once a month for three, four days and it's still in-person classes. Professor is teaching you everything, but it's very fast track. Also the networking you do there, again, you will hear networking every time I talk about things. You're sitting with like very senior people in the classroom. and in MBA you do a lot of case studies.
their views which bring from their companies how they do things. I think that was so important for me to learn
Jess Sherlock (25:12)
looking back now as a PM, why was this case study approach for the MBAs a helpful thing for you coming from being an engineer? Like what sorts, can you remember the types of takeaways or lessons learned skills that you developed, even though it wasn't necessarily like read a textbook, learn the skills?
Anand T (25:28)
Mm-hmm.
Now, the case study really helped me focus on β strategies, β understanding. I mean, they teach you all these models like Porter's five forces, β like how competition works in the market. And when they get you case studies to do it, then you actually have to apply those things, which in product today, like, hey, if I want to launch a new feature,
β I'm doing that competitive analysis, right? I'm trying to figure out β what segment, mean for sling for us it's pretty predefined but still it's a very broad segment. mean sports fan and people who want to watch live TV. It's a very broad. Now in that segment you have people who are very price sensitive, some people who want international programming.
So how you so you see the even in my target segment, they're like sub segments and Actually great day today. We launched a day pass
It is targeted for that very price sensitive customer who just want to watch a football game or something over the weekend. It's for a they subscribe to Sling and then they go away. There's no commitment, nothing. So you see, I think those case studies helped me look at the problem different ways.
Jess Sherlock (27:06)
no, that absolutely answers the question. And I think that's what's interesting is like you mentioned Porter five forces. I jotted a note down to include some resources for folks on that, because that is the thing that I often tell folks. And we're going to talk about this a little bit later, because I want to finish out your career journey. But I often tell folks that, you know, learning product is a moving target for a lot of reasons. All
Every individual product role is going to be so influenced by the stage of the organization. If it's a very early startup, things might be running super duper lean. If it's a more mid-sized organization, you might be doing those traditional agile ceremonies. I was speaking with somebody last week whose company just launched Scaled Agile, which is agile on steroids. I will do a separate podcast on that, I suppose. Not my favorite. Yeah, Scaled Agile is not bad, but it's a different version of agile.
Anand T (27:52)
That's what we do.
Yeah.
Jess Sherlock (27:59)
β The skills you need around how to actually get work done is different company to company. How involved you are in the upfront strategic thinking for the work you're doing is going to depend on level of career experience, what you own and the stage of the product. But some of these frameworks, I will say, they come up a lot in my SHINE program as I'm teaching folks how to think. So
Anand T (28:12)
Yeah.
Jess Sherlock (28:21)
that's a great example of, you know, it's less about reading a particular textbook and it's more about the activity of looking at a case study of a business challenge that was faced by a company, looking at what they did. And then at least what I typically hear is that there's like this live discussion in the classroom or maybe small group discussions where you're tearing it, you're kind of tearing it apart. It's like, what did they do well? What would you have done differently? What?
Anand T (28:41)
Yeah.
Jess Sherlock (28:47)
framework did they use? Did they use a framework? Is that kind of how it felt in this program?
Anand T (28:51)
yeah, yeah, exactly. they do case studies for everything, for leadership, β for strategies, for example, like the battle of Coke and Pepsi. β We talked about in the marketing, β squatty potty.
the power of viral commercials.
Jess Sherlock (29:11)
Yeah,
it's the unicorn, right? With like the soft-court serve rainbow poos. Sorry folks, if you're eating. get your MBA. did you just get the title? How did, yeah, so then what happened?
Anand T (29:13)
Yep. Yep. Yep.
No. no. no.
you still have deadlines. You you have to, I was not writing code at that point. I was more about β leading, but β what I did is I went and talked to my VP at the time and I told him like, hey, this is what I want to do. β And he said, okay, I will introduce you to a couple of people in the company. You can talk to them.
So then I, at that point, the VP of product, did talk to him also. I told him, this is what I'm doing. This is what my plan is. And β he said, okay, we will see. I did, at that same time, we started Boost Wireless. So I went there. I'm like, hey, I'm ready to work. β But it took, I wanna say at least eight and a half for me constantly like. β
Is there any job? Is there any job? What are you guys doing? Can I help you? β They want to do the... We were working on some new product. It was Android based set up box. I'm like, can I pretend like I'm a technical product manager for this project so I can do the data analysis, all that stuff and then PM can just like...
designer slash product manager when they can take to talk about more business side like how we want to market and all that stuff and luckily I was able to get it so that was again like slowly building the case and yeah it took me a year and half to convince the my boss and he's like okay I think you can come and help us
Jess Sherlock (31:05)
Okay,
So again, relationships, persistence, And patience. I that is the thing I remind folks of often is that these changes, whether it's a promotion or it's a shift in role or shifting to a different project once you have the role, like we often...
Anand T (31:22)
Yeah.
Jess Sherlock (31:27)
want those things to happen so much faster than they actually do. And you're at a large organization that has a lot of moving parts. So it's not really a surprise, but thank you for putting a date on that. I mean, that was 18 months. It wasn't like, hey, boss, I did my MBA. Can I now have the title? It was still, let me instill confidence in you. Let me have small wins so that you can start to see what I've learned and start to put it into practice.
Anand T (31:49)
Exactly.
Jess Sherlock (31:52)
All right.
you started as a senior product manager, which if I remember correctly, we'll get into this when we talk about coaching, I think you got really lucky with that title because it gave you the title in order to, think, allow you to maintain your pay grade and also acknowledge the amount of years of experience that you had. But as we started to work together, there were certainly gaps that we had to tackle pretty quickly because you weren't really operating at that senior level as much as I would.
Anand T (32:15)
Exactly. Yeah.
I did
reject, β there was a lot of negotiation went into that whole process β in terms of pay cut and all that stuff too. yeah, it was just not an easy like, hey, know, come work with us. No, it's like, come work with us, but we'll not give you what you make today. I'm like, okay, that's not happening. So yeah, again, everything, even in the same company, even your transition from one team to different team.
Jess Sherlock (32:41)
Yeah.
Anand T (32:48)
you will have resistors.
Jess Sherlock (32:49)
Yeah, exactly. There'll be resistance. You have to be patient. There may have to be a negotiation and you know, it's a long game is what I tell people is that in the moment, taking a small hit or becoming a beginner again, in the moment it feels insurmountable and frustrating. But if you're thinking about it as you know, one step in the next season of your career, that's a step that you who knows how long that might have taken if you had tried to get
Anand T (32:52)
Yeah.
Jess Sherlock (33:17)
a new product job at a different organization where you had no relationships built and no reputation. all right. So let's talk about your first official product project. What was your first assignment when you finally landed the senior PM title?
Anand T (33:32)
I think that was dish hello.
Jess Sherlock (33:34)
Okay, tell us about that product.
Anand T (33:36)
Dish I'll give you the YouTube link where I was talking about the product at one of the conference. You can share that. But I think I got lucky where when I joined a product team, they were looking for somebody who can come in and kind of explore the new verticals.
Jess Sherlock (33:41)
Yeah!
Anand T (34:02)
I call them β second growth engines. So you have a core business going and then you have second stage. When you launch the rocket, you have the first stage launcher and then you have the second stage. So you're looking for those second stage launch points. β And one of the ways you can do that is you can have your target audience, which are your customer, and then you can say what value added service you can provide to them. β
Or like, is there an adjacent market where you can go and do things? So dish hello was something like that, which we have an Android setup box. We realized during COVID, yeah, was COVID. People would start to use a lot of like meets and zooms and...
doing a meet on a laptop, it's not easy, let's just say it. On phone it's hard. So we're like, β we're gonna just use TV for that. And we have set-top box to do it, then people, can talk to each other. And it's a different feeling when you see somebody on TV and you sit on your living room couch and talk to them. β So that was a goal.
product is to make communication easier, which is also our vision and mission here.
Jess Sherlock (35:24)
Yeah, yeah.
And for folks who don't know Dish is a satellite, I guess traditionally is a satellite television company, but has since acquired Sling TV, which is internet based TV. And so Dish Hello was sort of, how can we take what we're already doing with Set Top TV and solve this?
Anand T (35:42)
Yeah.
Jess Sherlock (35:44)
But real tangible problem to be asked to solve in your first role. mean, that doesn't sound like a small project and it sounds very visible.
How, I guess, looking back on that time.
Anand T (35:57)
to it.
Jess Sherlock (36:00)
I'm curious, what skills do you remember leveraging that you had built earlier in your career without realizing it? And where were the gaps that you think still existed?
Anand T (36:11)
I think the skills, I was quickly able to understand the technical capability of the β product. We did kind of went little backward. We had the technology first and now we are trying to find the market for it. β And I think it looks and feels good when you do these case studies in classroom. β
and you have to present to your professor the findings, it's a whole different feeling when you have to do the same thing and you have to project like, hey, we're going to make this much money in two year or six year, and then go to a Fortune 500 company's general manager or president and present the same thing. it is a whole different ballgame. And then get β confirmation like, are we doing this project or not?
Jess Sherlock (37:00)
Yeah.
Yeah,
yeah. I, me if I'm wrong, I think that is when our paths cross was right around in that time, right? It was July, 2022. And I think you and I had kind of known each other through product circles in the Denver area. You know, we had crossed paths at different networking events and whatnot, but I pulled up my notes. Is it okay if I share a couple of things that you mentioned you were looking for?
Anand T (37:10)
Yes. Yep.
product.
Yeah.
Jess Sherlock (37:31)
Because I mean, it's three years ago, so it's always interesting to see like, what was it that you were aware that you needed? Because what I found is when folks reach out to me for coaching, there is some amount that you know you need help with. And then there's, you we usually address that low hanging fruit. But then there's always things that we discover as we start working together that were like your personal unknown unknowns, β which could be skill gaps or.
Anand T (37:45)
Yeah.
Jess Sherlock (38:00)
you know, habits or beliefs, things like that, that we have to work through. So July, 2022, you reach out for coaching. And I want to hear more about what led you to this, but this is what I knew is you had reached out saying, know, Hey, I've been at Dish for 15, 16 years as an engineer. had shifted into a PM role just nine months before. So it was very fresh by the time you were reaching out to me.
Anand T (38:02)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Jess Sherlock (38:26)
you at this point had finished your MBA, you had finished your pragmatic certification, and in your own words, you said you were looking for three things. Number one, support in doing the job, right? Just like you said, you had had this like academic knowledge that you built through the MBA. know, professors aren't always as hard on you as your leadership might be. So you were feeling like, gosh, I know what I'm doing, but I'm not sure if I'm applying it practically as well as I could be.
β You were also really interested in frameworks to use. I remember that was a big part of our conversations was you, that was probably the engineer in you is I think you were looking for the tangible frameworks and techniques that they're there as a PM, but not necessarily as vividly as they are when you're an engineer. I think that was something you were looking for, but as we worked together, we had to realize that, you know,
Anand T (39:08)
Yeah. Yeah.
Jess Sherlock (39:25)
frameworks are less like a to do list of here's how to tackle a project from step one to step 10. And it was more like, we've got to develop your personal toolbox and you've we've got to work on having you pick the right tool at the right time. And then on top of all that, you were starting to think about your career long term So you asked for like career visioning. So it's like, am I doing the right stuff to grow? Where could this career path take me?
Anand T (39:34)
Exactly.
Yeah.
Jess Sherlock (39:49)
tell us a little bit about what led you to look for a coach? Like what was, what was the trigger for you or how how did you even know that a coach would be a thing? How did, how'd you find me? What led you to seek me out?
Anand T (40:01)
are a couple of things in play there. The title itself, like, hey, I'm a senior PM. I should behave or work like a senior PM. And yeah, exactly. Yeah. And then.
Jess Sherlock (40:11)
Yeah, so maybe some imposter syndrome and nerves there around your performance, okay?
Anand T (40:18)
Going back to the case studies, you do that in the classroom, that's a different story, but then you have to sit and like, β I have this project, hello, β what to do, like, where do you even start doing competitive analysis? First time you have to find who I'm competing with. so it's more about, it's more like, art.
But then that's where I'm like, there has to be all these frameworks these books talks about.
Jess Sherlock (40:44)
And actually, even before that, I'll call you out on this, but you said it, you said it, that this project was a little bit backwards. But I came into this knowing, all right, this guy's got over a decade of experience as an engineer and he's sitting here with this new technology and he's going, what should we do with it? It's a new fun toy. Does anybody want to play with this? And I'm going, hold on a minute.
Anand T (41:05)
Yeah.
Jess Sherlock (41:08)
what problem are we solving and who are we solving it for? Because at the time, Dish anyways, and I think continues to be like traditionally Dish is service that's used more in rural communities, right? With usually like older audiences. And I'm going, are we sure that, like are we creating a problem to try to solve? And you know, not all toys want to be played with. And so.
Anand T (41:21)
Exactly. Yeah.
Jess Sherlock (41:36)
I remember that was a, you you were being asked by the company, basically pitch us on how we should use this technology. And so even though that was what they were asking for, it was really important to me that you understood that that was backwards. Cause anyone I work with, I'm always thinking about it as I want you to be building really strong habits, good solid product practices. And if your organization asks you to break those rules or do things slightly out of order, that's fine. It happens all the time.
Anand T (42:02)
Yeah.
Jess Sherlock (42:03)
But I want you to be aware of when we're doing things in a way that has the potential to introduce risk, right? Because the old build it and they will come methodology is notoriously flawed in product. And that was where we were heading.
Anand T (42:16)
Probably, yeah.
Jess Sherlock (42:18)
So I'm curious, what would you say it was like working together? Like, what are the things that stand out in your mind over those couple of years of coaching? how would you describe it? What sorts of things did it help you with?
Anand T (42:30)
So I think, β how should I put it? So I came and I think like, don't know what to do. I have this job now, I need to deliver. And I have all these, I can read all the books, but I think in the end, I was realizing that every product is different. And it's the toolkit you talking about. And...
You can even have the toolkit, but it's the knowledge of what tool to use when. That's where I think I was really struggling. I will say working with you is I will come up with like, I need to do this. example, I need to have this presentation to give it to at the explain them. And you're like, help you there. But I think that's where you start to.
put those questions in the mind like, is it the right thing we are focusing on right now or do we need to think more long term or are you just like listening to other people's voices and doing it versus actually as a PM thinking it through and then giving your opinion. And I think that was a big mind shift like.
the tools or the frameworks out there to help me but in the end the mindset or the way you have to think like a PM is what we need to develop and work on it. So that's the exercise we did over and over and over all the projects after that.
Jess Sherlock (44:00)
And when I think back on the time of us working together, the best way I could describe it, and I'm curious if this resonates for you, is our work really was in correcting for your natural slant. you had all this professional experience where the grand majority of it was as an engineer who had been deeply trained to focus on just building the thing you're being told to build, which is absolutely the opposite.
of a good solid PM should be doing, right? So strong PMs are really focused on should we build this thing? And if so, where should we start? So when I think back on our time together, was you back from technical feasibility considerations and pointing you at market discovery, or it was pulling you back from
Anand T (44:40)
Yeah.
Jess Sherlock (44:55)
talking a lot about the solution in a presentation to your leaders and encouraging you to show your math on the problem that you're solving, the size and scale of the problem, and then of course the business opportunity. So the way I think about the slant is, you know, the classic, what is product management Venn diagram, where it's a little bit of business, it's a little bit of customer and UX design, a little bit of tech. It's like, you were very comfortable in the tech slant and your MBA, I think,
Anand T (45:15)
Yep.
Jess Sherlock (45:23)
created some comfort for you in the business part, that it was definitely an area we needed to fill in. β And so everyone has a slant. Every PM is going to be slanted based on where they've spent the bulk of their career. And so, yeah, when I think back on the time we were working together, was like, Anand, you don't have to build this. Your job is to figure out if we should.
Anand T (45:27)
But not yet.
Yeah.
Too much time spent in solution space, not defending the problem. then a couple of times I think I was doing too much research. And then... β
Jess Sherlock (45:59)
I remember that as well. Yeah, what comes to
mind? What do you remember?
Anand T (46:04)
I think was a different project. I was working on what we call age tech in the healthcare sector and I think...
That market is very big and I would just like more research papers on like what's coming new research on β like I read AARP research on people like where they're struggling in their life, day to day life. So I think I was trying too hard to find a problem or multiple problems to solve. And then.
Maybe there are a couple of biases which I was just trying to like, I think this is true and I'm going to do enough research to make it true.
Jess Sherlock (46:46)
Yeah,
like seeking out that confirmation bias of what you thought was true. Yeah, that's true. And I think some of that is because you're an engineer. think engineers, just are deeply curious humans. And so it makes a lot of sense, right, that you were naturally drawn to that discovery work. you were with that age tech project. I remember you were learning all about
Anand T (46:48)
Confirmation, yeah.
Jess Sherlock (47:07)
like the average age that someone might go into a skilled nursing home and all the different levels of skilled nursing homes. it was like, okay, great. We have a wheelbarrow. We have a dump truck full of all this raw insight. So Anand, where do we start? I think I vividly remember that conversation. like, all right, we talked 30 days ago. You're still researching, but we've got to decide where to start. We have to place our bet on an MVP.
Anand T (47:14)
yeah.
Jess Sherlock (47:35)
I think that was the first time you had really had to go from, have all this information to, wait, I'm the person that's supposed to put forth a proposal of where to start.
Anand T (47:44)
Yeah, I'm like, oh, I'm doing the work. Like, no, no, no, you have to process then give something out to the company. It's like, hey, it's out.
Jess Sherlock (47:48)
Yeah!
Exactly. Yeah. And
it was all rooted as well in relationships you had built with your leadership that they had trusted you to just kind of give you the keys. But now we had to actually prove some value. And that's going to ultimately happen by shipping things that solve problems. But in order to even ship something, we have to decide what we're going to ship. yeah, was like, you know,
Anand T (48:06)
Yep.
That was great
and I think I really coming back to that, like nudging it and then I think a few times you did really rip the bandaid off.
β There was one time I was talking about, β these are my metrics and I'm gonna show it to the world that how successful my product is. And you're just like, those metrics looks like a junior PM had put them together and I'm like, what? Do you remember that?
Jess Sherlock (48:47)
do remember that. I think this is, maybe my New York is showing, tough love is really important to me. I, you know, we don't get it straight from a lot of our peers and unfortunately from our managers. And so, yeah, I remember that moment and we, you know, for everybody who's listening, it's is probably, you know, a year into our working relationship. So this wasn't our first conversation, but I think it was like.
Anand T (48:56)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Jess Sherlock (49:12)
knew you had better in you and it just needed to be said so we could scrap what you had. And I can't remember the specifics, but I think it was that these metrics think there were two things going on. Some of them are vanity metrics where they just weren't going to be helpful and actionable. Yeah, but the other part of it was that they you couldn't actually take.
Anand T (49:27)
helpful at all,
Jess Sherlock (49:32)
credit for those metrics because they were what I would call lagging metrics or they were too high level of metrics for you to actually claim impact on. So things like revenue, right? Like this is a giant company with a lot of moving parts. We cannot say that your single thing is going to be solely responsible for some revenue increase, right? It's like as a PM, typically we want to be looking at things that are measurable within a week. It's like usage.
Anand T (49:36)
Like, yeah. I was gonna, yeah.
for the uptick in the image, yeah.
Jess Sherlock (49:59)
retention or not retention, but like repeat users, right? Those are the things that I had you hone in on.
Anand T (50:05)
yeah, we talked about the whole leading versus lacking metrics and when to use what metrics, that term I still use a lot. β Every time I went, I was talking about like we have to do, a financial projection and all that stuff. And a lot of times people like, just put a number. I'm like, no, I have to, and you said that.
Put a number you can justify in front of your CEO. So I will always like, even if I'm putting a fake number, which you don't, but even if I'm putting a fake number, I will have a story behind that number. So all the numbers I have everywhere in my documents, PRDs, you can ask me, I have a story and a justification how I will get there.
Jess Sherlock (50:41)
Yes, yes.
β I'm so proud of you. But it's so important because we, as PMs, we're operating on the trust we've developed and the credibility that we have in our organization. And I suppose reputation, once you get to the point of shipping things. But that, you you have to expect that your leadership is going to how did we come up with that target? Or even better, and, at Dish, maybe you'll be a lifer, who knows. But I say this to every PM, it's like,
Anand T (51:01)
Yeah.
Jess Sherlock (51:17)
Even if your leader in this job isn't asking you why you picked that target, down the road when you end up in a job interview, it's very common in the interview processes nowadays to be asked to share about something that you've recently launched. And if you can't articulate well thought through valid success metrics that you measured to measure the impact of what you built, then
Anand T (51:31)
Yeah.
Jess Sherlock (51:41)
you're going to have a hard time being viewed as a true product manager because they're just going to view you as someone who ships things and calls it done when that output is out there. It's like we want to be building things that deliver an outcome. And if you can't articulate that outcome, it's not going to benefit you in this current role or at whatever role might be next.
Anand T (51:58)
so I sat on a couple of panel interviews, more than couple, and this is what, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I will ask them, like hey, tell me about β a project, pick your favorite project, then talk to me about your
Jess Sherlock (52:02)
for roles that were being hired in your company, you mean? So like to hire your peers? cool. Tell us about that.
Anand T (52:18)
So give me some background on the hypothesis and then how you measure your success then was it fail or not And then give me a reason why it actually failed or succeeded. then, I think, if they can walk me through this one project and all these steps, in my mind, they are hired. Or my recommendation is yes, they understand everything.
Jess Sherlock (52:38)
Yeah, yeah, because.
Yeah, and it's I call it showing your math. We talked about that a lot. It's like you have to be able to show your math on why you targeted a certain metric or how you picked that metric over something else. That's like one of my favorite questions to ask in that sort of setting is they'll present the whole project. They'll tell you, we measured, let's say, you know, traffic to this new page and then, you know, percentage of users that engaged with a particular feature is great. But one of my favorite questions to ask is.
Anand T (52:46)
Yeah.
Jess Sherlock (53:09)
What other metrics did you consider you choose this one over those? Because what I'm looking for is that, like, I don't care what the metrics are. I mean, to a point, I care. But really what I'm looking for is like, did you consider anything else? And how did you make a decision there? Because always more than one way to do things. And it's a red flag to me if you're not considering other ways, but it's also a red flag.
Anand T (53:20)
Yeah.
Jess Sherlock (53:34)
if you can't explain to me why you made a decision, especially the more senior you become. So this, think, was especially important for me to talk with you about because had this senior PM title. And what I'm always thinking about is your personal career path. And so for you, you have the senior PM title today. some reason you had to go out on the job search and there was no indication that you were going to, but that can happen at any point.
Anand T (53:37)
Exactly.
Jess Sherlock (53:58)
had clients who suddenly get laid off, right? Market changes happen. I want to make sure of is that if the unexpected happens and you suddenly have to go out and get yourself a new job, I'd like for you to to get something that's at least equivalent to where, you know, your title and salary is today. And the challenge that you and I both knew existed was you had kind of swindled your way into a title that you weren't really qualified for because you had such a strong history at the company. Yeah. But which like kudos to you. I love that for you.
Anand T (54:00)
Yeah.
Jess Sherlock (54:27)
But I want to make sure that on the off chance you have to go out and talk about your work experience to that next employer, you come across as a senior. Because people get inflated titles all the time. And how you talk about your work is one of the single best ways for a hiring manager to determine your actual level. Like a title might be right, but
Anand T (54:35)
Yeah.
Jess Sherlock (54:49)
I can't tell you the amount of times that I've seen someone with a title like principal or staff, and I expect to hear them talking about this high level strategic ownership and long-term visioning and planning. And what I'm handed in their experience is what I would consider PM or senior PM level work. And so I really wanted to make sure that you could walk the walk title was implying. And so yeah, was tough love, but it's funny that that sticks out and has stuck with you all this time later.
Anand T (54:57)
Mm-hmm.
Hey,
I'm happy that you've felt that trust that, you know, I can just give him straight truth.
Jess Sherlock (55:23)
Yeah.
Yeah. And I trusted that you it in action on it. And I think I say this to everyone is always like, our coaching sessions are a no judgment zone. We have to be honest and we have to operate in this safe space that there is no no seniority. I'm not your boss or I can't fire you. It's like, I need you to be honest about where you're operating below you'd like to be operating so that we can fix it. And so
Anand T (55:33)
Yeah, yeah.
Jess Sherlock (55:49)
Yeah, being able to be honest both ways was really powerful for us to be able to address those skill gaps So we've talked a lot about how your background being an engineer was maybe not so helpful, right? That we had to really work hard to correct the slant. We had to bring you out of solutioning mode. But I know there were certain things where having an engineering background actually really was helpful. Can you talk about?
Anand T (55:55)
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
yeah.
Jess Sherlock (56:15)
some of those either projects or situations in which your engineering skills actually did help you be a more effective PM.
Anand T (56:23)
So it's going back to relationships. I think me being an engineer, I can sit in the meetings and understand a lot of trade-offs they're doing when they are designing something or architecting something. Or sometimes they will come back to me and say, hey, we cannot deliver this.
in two weeks but it will take four weeks because XYZ and that's where I think it helps me to really understand like no they are actually saying what's what it is so I don't have to push back or sometimes it goes other way where β I remember one time was a very junior PM was working with me β on a
and he was still like spinning on the solution. And one day I'm like, let's, we're going to do a brainstorming session. I'm going to put my engineering hat on. and we both worked together and I didn't code anything, but I think I was just like asking and directing him. β
and we were able to come up with a plan, an algorithm basically, a control flow. And he implemented that next day and we on track. think as an engineer, I have that insight I can ask the right question. I think that's where it helps me. But that is...
Jess Sherlock (57:51)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Anand T (57:56)
way less than how many times I get in trouble.
Jess Sherlock (58:00)
So you still have that slant sometimes you really have to work against it. Yeah, it makes sense.
Anand T (58:01)
Yeah, yeah, but the good thing
is after working with you, I'm like, really know like, okay, you should stop now.
Jess Sherlock (58:12)
I've had people say they kind of hear my voice in their head. Sorry, not sorry. And it's funny because it's like, know you're capable, but and the reason I encourage you to be so aware of it is it's not that you can't, right? But it's just like, I guess like in a baseball game, right? Is that you can go out and play shortstop, the team really needs you to be the catcher.
Anand T (58:14)
Yeah.
This is not your job, stop.
Jess Sherlock (58:35)
And there's no catcher, right? going to harm us overall. So like there's a base you're leaving empty or a role that you're leaving empty every time, you know, you are the PM, but you're shifting over to the engineering work. It's like the team needs you to be thinking about, should we do this and when should we do this and why should we do it? Not how should we.
Anand T (58:52)
Yeah.
And sometimes it is also about the trust I need to, and I think earlier in my career, because I was principal engineer and I'm working with a junior engineer, for example, I was lacking that trust that he can or she can do the job.
correctly, right? Because I'm like, β I'm principal, you know, I know exactly how it's done. But what I learned over the time is, and now I actually trust them, I give them full like, hey, implementation is not my job, it's your job, you implement it. If I see something which is, β I think maybe better, I'll give you an advice, but that's about it. still, and surprisingly, I...
They have done a pretty amazing job.
Jess Sherlock (59:44)
Yeah, yeah. For what it's worth, I am similar. When I am working within a team and there are product designers, I have a lot of skills around customer discovery, for example, and interviewing and setting up effective research studies and that's where I started my career. So that recognition, there's a difference between saying, hey, I can mentor in this area. you know, there are times where I'm going to have something helpful to add because I've been there, done that.
Anand T (1:00:05)
Yeah.
Jess Sherlock (1:00:09)
But yeah, that self-control and self-awareness to be like, that's where I should draw the boundary is, give that advice. They can take it or leave it. β So a nice balance of being collaborative versus being controlling, which should be the worst end of the spectrum to be on. β I didn't put this in the list of questions because I didn't think I'd want to ask. But
Are you doing any vibe coding or?
Anand T (1:00:33)
So I actually have a β couple of agents in ChatGPT, which I built to do research around streaming industry. So I use that a lot to do my research. β I'm working on another...
Jess Sherlock (1:00:46)
Very cool.
Anand T (1:00:55)
which will help its internal for data mining we do a lot of research every year. We have done a lot of research in the past. We buy a lot of research. So I think that it'll be a good use of AI to kind of like process everything and then I can have a conversation like, tell me what YouTube is doing football season.
Jess Sherlock (1:01:16)
Yeah, or
what trends are we noticing in this segment, those sorts of things. Very cool, very cool.
Anand T (1:01:21)
This is in segment, yeah.
Jess Sherlock (1:01:23)
One thing we didn't touch on as we're starting to wrap up here is the I guess, side projects you've done. So you've got this interesting leadership role now with an organization called TIE. So you've always been networking. We've talked about how you're like a shameless networker, but you took on this role as, was it president of TIE? guess tell us a little bit about that. And I'm just curious, like how has that opportunity
benefited you, because one could argue, right, as a busy PM, someone who's just got a lot on their plate for their day job, got big family, like you're also doing this other thing, like what are you doing? And also do you view it as helpful to your overall career?
Anand T (1:02:06)
So TIE is a nonprofit, it's a global organization. We have a chapter in Colorado and it's basically helping entrepreneurs with what I call three C's, capital connection and coaching. And you have a lot of founders
these are the folks who really need help in product side, actually. Because they are either engineers or researchers or a business person who solved this problem and they're trying to solve it.
this chapter, helping me in a couple of ways. First of all, because I have to host I like a PM, don't have direct reports or anything, I have a lot of people who come and volunteer, so I have to make sure I talk to them.
it's pretty much like PMing the chapter, yeah. But thing is when I work with these entrepreneurs, I see their products and then they talk about their difficulties because they all have a lot of problems. Their product is...
not working well or they don't have the good conversion rate, they have some problem with financing, like they don't, pricing is another one, should I give it for free or should I price it like the cheapest or all that? And this is where I can come in like, these are like the real world case studies for me to practice my skills more and more and more. And because it's all free, it's up to them to take it or leave it.
Jess Sherlock (1:03:34)
Yeah, it's like you get to be almost this like volunteer fractional product leader kind of on the side. Yeah, that's amazing. That's amazing. I, you know, knowing what I know about the organization that you're at now, right? It's a big legacy company. It can take a lot for things to move. Pricing is not something that you would just jump in and figure out in an hour. Right? So that's gotta be just a fun way to keep you sharp and give you a little kind of like a safe sandbox to go.
Anand T (1:03:39)
CPU, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Safe sandbox,
yeah.
Jess Sherlock (1:04:04)
Yeah,
practice those skills with these like lower risk in these lower risk environments. That's really cool. That's really cool.
Anand T (1:04:12)
That's
yeah, and it really helps some of the people, β even when you sit there and ask questions, β like a good PM, like, why are you doing this? What is your target market? Have you thought about using this tool or that tool? And they're like, β okay, that makes sense.
Jess Sherlock (1:04:30)
Yeah, yeah,
that must be really validating. I think one of my favorite things in my career has been through teaching and coaching. are surprised when I say this, but I feel like it helps me hone my skills. Because when you're teaching someone, like in that situation, you ask these questions and inevitably you're going to have to clarify something or teach them something. Not only is it really fulfilling, I think, to be able to give back.
Anand T (1:04:44)
Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
Jess Sherlock (1:04:58)
but it also requires you to stay sharp in some of the basics that you might not go back to very often. You're operating at this high level of Fortune 500 company, leadership level decisions and big picture discussions, but to go back to the basics with someone who still hasn't got quite gotten to product market fit, like totally different context. So I love that for you.
Anand T (1:05:17)
Yeah, yeah. Exactly.
Jess Sherlock (1:05:22)
so final question for you, and I ask this for everyone that comes on the podcast. What's next for you? What goal are you working towards next in your career?
Anand T (1:05:32)
So my goal is going forward is obviously work at where I am today and hopefully move to a bigger role, have more impact in this company or somewhere else. And then also helping these entrepreneurs who are coming to me through TIE.
to teach more about fit or product management in general, which will help them succeed in whatever they want to do. that's a goal right now.
Jess Sherlock (1:06:01)
Wonderful,
wonderful. So since you're such awesome networker, are there ways people could reach out to you? So if people want to have a conversation or learn more about Tie or just chat product, how can people reach you?
Anand T (1:06:15)
I'm available on LinkedIn. I am always up for lunch or coffee. β Now I'll pay if they're struggling PMs or if they don't have a job, I'll pay. It's not a problem.
Jess Sherlock (1:06:20)
If they pay, right? They have to buy?
Sure, what a nice guy, what a nice guy. Awesome,
and you're located in the Denver area, Denver, wonderful, wonderful. Well, I so appreciate you being on the pod, and yeah, we'll have to stay in touch.
Anand T (1:06:36)
in South Denver, yeah.
We will and I'll say thank you for.
mind shift, from engineer to PM and start thinking about removing the blind spots basically. And let me see the whole world as a product manager. So, yeah.
Jess Sherlock (1:06:56)
Yeah.
You're so welcome. You're so welcome. It's
hard for us to see our own blind spots. I have my own. This is why I've had coaches over the years, is it's so difficult to see your own blind spots, but when it's someone else outside looking in, Just creating that awareness of them all of a sudden can be such a massive shift. So I'm so glad that our paths cross more officially
Anand T (1:07:12)
Yeah.
Jess Sherlock (1:07:18)
your level of confidence in what you're working on and even just the language that you're using, it's all together in such an amazing way. work. I'm super duper proud of you.
Anand T (1:07:26)
So do I sound
like a senior PM now?
Jess Sherlock (1:07:29)
I mean, you kind of sound like a senior PM. You did it.
Anand T (1:07:32)
So Jess certified.
Jess Sherlock (1:07:35)
Awesome, thank you, Anand.
Anand T (1:07:37)
Thank you.
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