🎧 Better Together: The Story Behind the Acquisition of SPRINT & SCALE

Today we have a very special guest on the show! Blair Presley is joining us - she is the original creator of the SPRINT and SCALE programs. 

ICYMI: in October 2024, I officially acquired the SPRINT and SCALE programs as the absolute perfect compliments to my SHINE program for Product Managers.

Many of you have been asking for the deets on how this all came to be, how Blair and I met, and what this means for the future of the SPRINT, SCALE and SHINE programs and my community for Product Managers.

This episode will cover all that and more.

Plus some laughs along the way. 🤣

Curious about how product management career coaching can help you grow in your product career?

🚀 SPRINT: A coaching program for product managers trying to land their first (or next!) PM job and need explicit direction and communal direction, which includes but isn’t limited to resume guidance, interview prep, and job search strategy.

📈 SCALE: A private 1:1 mentorship program for newly-hired product managers who want to make an impact fast and who need a safe space and tangible guidance to thrive.

✨ SHINE: A personalized 1:1 coaching program for experienced product managers who want to position themselves for a promotion or more leadership, who need a roadmap to level up and get unstuck.

• 📄 TRANSCRIPT

  Blair Presley Bone (00:02.766)
  I believe that I am returning to Product Manager after well over a year, but this just feels like the perfect reason to return. On today's episode, we have guest slash new owner slash now dear friend, Jess Sherlock, and I have lots of questions for you, I hope you're ready.
  
  Jess Sherlock (00:28.271)
  am ready. I even have this fancy microphone.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (00:31.17)
  that slides in out of nowhere every time that I love.
  
  Jess Sherlock (00:38.161)
  I now have a podcast if you can't tell.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (00:40.45)
  I love it. we all have to talk about, I want to start by, I guess, talking about our transition, you know, the coaching business that I built five years ago, that became my baby is now your baby. And I am so, so, so happy that it is. So want to cover that. I want to cover what your new podcast is all about. I want to know all about what coaching has been like.
  
  since the transition, we can talk about the transition. I wanna dive into all of it, but I guess first it probably makes sense to start with who you are. Tell the people who you are.
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:19.645)
  Sure, sure, sure, sure. And I also think, as you were saying five years ago, I'm gonna pause. Do you remember when I reached out to you and I said, hey, you're a coach, I wanna be a coach. Can we talk? And we had a call. I remember I was kinda nervous, cause you seemed like you had your shit all together. Your website was amazing. Your programs were amazing. And here I was trying to figure it out.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (01:33.122)
  Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (01:45.24)
  That's it.
  
  Thank
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:49.757)
  And we had a call and looking back, I'm like, how was that so long ago? And, you know, knowing where we are now. Anyways, that call is like forever burned in my memory.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (02:02.946)
  You know, it's the same. said, this is how I know this is going to be a long one because there are so many little parts of that that resonate with me as well. There are other instances in which people ask me like, Blair, do you take calls from your competition, so to speak? Take your brain. Do you ever, do you say yes? Do you charge them? What does that look like for you? And I always say yes. If I can, I say yes, because you can't wait to this point.
  
  Jess Sherlock (02:20.317)
  Mmm.
  
  Jess Sherlock (02:30.141)
  Mm-hmm.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (02:32.006)
  never know how this could blossom. So I'm actually very grateful that I did and that you were interested and we stayed in touch all these years later.
  
  Jess Sherlock (02:42.909)
  You were a little skeptical of me, I think. I remember I was asking you like, how'd you decide on your pricing and how did you do? You were a little like, who is this girl?
  
  Blair Presley Bone (02:44.704)
  No way!
  
  Blair Presley Bone (02:52.885)
  You're right. Of the calls, I've had several. I've had several over the years. And it's always funny because some of the calls are like, I just kind of want to pick your brain, but I really just want to complain about how hard it is to start a business. Yeah, I spend 30, if it's a 30 minute call, 22 of them are me just really listening.
  
  Jess Sherlock (03:07.739)
  Mmm. Yeah, I get those too. Yep.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (03:16.11)
  Like they honestly just need someone to get into. I get it. You're a solopreneur. You feel like no one else gets it. And then I'm just kind of the sounding board, if you will. And I've shared nothing. You on the other hand, which now it tracks, right? This tracks. You're like, no, no, no, no. I can then elsewhere. Here are my 18 questions. Very specifically, how did you decide on pricing? And I'm like, oh, no, she really wants to get to it.
  
  Jess Sherlock (03:33.65)
  I had a sheet!
  
  Blair Presley Bone (03:41.998)
  So yeah, did have to, I do recall having to decide like how do I share such that I'm helpful but I'm also not like giving away all the secrets. And now look at us.
  
  Jess Sherlock (03:50.525)
  You
  
  Yeah, I know. All right, well now I'll introduce myself. So I'm Jess Sherlock. I started my career in product well over a decade ago. I was an accidental product manager, as many of us say. There's a whole episode of my podcast about it, but the short version being film school to corporate video production to marketing agencies to product agencies to accidental product manager.
  
  spent a number of years at a startup, grew that startup from a series A to a series B, and it was eventually sold and yeah, really got the hyper growth scaling side of product and then eventually got into coaching. So we'll talk more about that, I'm sure. But the interesting thing about getting into coaching is that you and I actually, we can put on our product hats here for a second.
  
  We were both product people in terms of how we got into the coaching. We just chose a different product to build. And so some helpful context here might be that we both actually knew of each other, I think, through General Assembly, but we didn't work together per se. So I had been teaching at the time, there were times where I was teaching three cohorts at once for product management. And that was in the early days of me like working for myself. That's essentially what I was doing.
  
  And so I kept hearing about this Blair Presley, you know, through the Slack channels or in the team that was working on the curriculum. And then when I heard that you became a coach, it was very similar to my story because I also would get contacted by previous students saying, hey, I took the course. I have some questions for you or I've run into a snag. What should I do? And, or people actually who took my course maybe years ago and are now mid-career.
  
  Jess Sherlock (05:45.627)
  with questions. So you tackled that first part of, I took the course, how do I get the job? Which is really smart, obviously. And then over time, it actually made sense for me to be passing people to you who were early on, or for you to be passing people to me who were a little bit further along. But it's really interesting that we both kind of discovered this market need being in a similar position as instructors at General Assembly.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (06:11.438)
  Totally, I remember pitching the idea of what eventually became Sprint to GA, I don't know, maybe 2018? Because remember they did have those career intensives, but at the time, they were only focused on, I think, UX design and, oh, what was the other one, Jess? UX design, no project for developers. Yep.
  
  Jess Sherlock (06:24.869)
  Yeah.
  
  Jess Sherlock (06:32.647)
  Data analytics or marketing, digital marketing. yeah. Software engineering.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (06:40.44)
  And those were the only two that they were focused on. So fair enough, I've true to form. I'm like, well, I'll just build it myself. I'll figure it out and I'll build it myself. I wasn't sure how it was going to go. In fact, it's almost five years to the day, like Sprint launched in May of 2020. Two months into the pandemic. I don't even think we were in the phase of the pandemic where we were wearing masks yet. Like it was still so early, had no idea how this was going to turn out. so yeah, it was just a bit of a faith walk, a bit of a
  
  I think this is a problem and I believe I have a solution that doesn't have to be super convoluted. just needs, people need guidance. People need to not guess at this thing. know, you and I stumbled in when it was really a whole new world, right? I don't know that either of us were looking to become product managers by title. It was nothing. I actually wanted to become a brand manager. I did not know what a product manager was. So now I guess really, I would say 2020.
  
  at that time and still today, people are looking to become this by title with so few resources. So yeah, was a space where, yeah, there's a need and the product in me is like, I'm gonna solve it. And you, I think, said the same thing, but decided for the mid-career folks, the people who fell into it, but because there wasn't a great resource of like, well, how do you do the things? How do you deal with the messy middle?
  
  you created your coaching program and after our first meeting we just you know connected what every few years or every every probably three times in four years or so.
  
  Jess Sherlock (08:12.317)
  Mm-hmm.
  
  Jess Sherlock (08:15.693)
  Usually it was an email occasionally, hey, I have somebody, how's the business? How are you doing? But it always felt like we were walking a similar path. Like we were walking next to each other, but like definitely addressing different types of folks. Interestingly too, I talk a lot about this with clients. Folks might not call this networking or like,
  
  Blair Presley Bone (08:20.13)
  Yes, we will.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (08:25.687)
  huh.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (08:42.798)
  Mm.
  
  Jess Sherlock (08:44.571)
  I hate the word networking. usually just say conversations. But when I tell people, like, this is what I'm talking about when I say, reach out, connect, learn about what somebody's doing, see how you can help. This is what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about, you know, awkwardly chatting over a glass of crappy wine at some networking event. It can be that, right? But you and I have never met in person. People are stunned when I tell them that. Never, never. Imagine my parents who are...
  
  Blair Presley Bone (08:47.502)
  Okay.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (09:07.604)
  Never. Never.
  
  Jess Sherlock (09:13.905)
  think my mom was a school bus driver. My dad still works in the trades. He's a plumber and heating guy. You imagine they're surprised. They're like, I'm going to buy this business. They're like, have you met this person?
  
  Blair Presley Bone (09:26.25)
  Never. I don't know if she would press the daily button down, but look, I trust her and it's happening.
  
  Jess Sherlock (09:31.771)
  and show off our outfits. You can really connect over video, we have FaceTimed. But it doesn't have to be icky. If you're doing networking and it always feels icky, you're doing it wrong. There's a depth here of relationship that we've developed because it was organic.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (09:47.138)
  Yeah, yeah, there's always.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (09:53.9)
  Yep. And I mean, okay, this could spawn into so many different podcast topics because there is a space or even when we were nervous, even when it's like, okay, you're about to make one hell of an investment. And even when I'm like, I'm about to possibly transition my legacy. Like I have never worked so hard for something in my life. I'm about to pass it to another human who again, I've never even seen their knees, right? Like how was
  
  Jess Sherlock (10:21.917)
  The good news. Good news.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (10:24.342)
  Right? You're right. Knees okay. So what does this look like? There were moments when we were concerned, but we were really transparent and, you know, able to hold space for the other person's concerns. I mean, even the lawyers were like, how did you all do this and make your so easy?
  
  Jess Sherlock (10:35.079)
  Mm-hmm.
  
  Jess Sherlock (10:44.615)
  yeah. yeah. The number of times I went to my lawyer being like, is this going the way a business acquisition typically goes? And he's like, no. And I'm like, no, what's wrong? And he goes, no, you normally would have like stalled out five times. We would have had like some massive disagreement. And yet the two of you, he's like, I haven't had to step in at all. I just read your docs and make sure they look okay. All right, take your agreement and move it in. So it's...
  
  Yeah, you're right. This could turn into a whole series, networking, hate the word relationships. Maybe we just call it relationships.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (11:24.526)
  I like to refer to it as community building. Because you are now forever part of my community and I am a part of yours. We've just built this community that started because we were walking to your point on a similar path. yeah, networking is not my favorite term. I've come to a level of acceptance with it, but I just think we've just built an incredibly strong community. Which makes my heart sing.
  
  Jess Sherlock (11:29.309)
  Go, okay.
  
  Jess Sherlock (11:49.265)
  Yeah, well, and community implies the depth of relationship too. I certainly have a lot of professional acquaintances, but my community or even my professional advisory board, if you will, there's a select few where those relationships go deep. And that's important, I think, to have a mix.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (11:57.249)
  Mm-hmm.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (12:07.33)
  Yeah, can we talk about the business I Okay, so it's clear I built Sprint and scale that was focused on helping people to get jobs, right? We know that there is and was a problem of folks who were like I want to become a product manager I've been trying on my own for three six twelve months. I've wasted all this time
  
  Jess Sherlock (12:12.241)
  Yes.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (12:34.536)
  and it's not happening for me. I'm finally accepting help. Enter the Sprint program and it's been phenomenal at helping to make that transition for folks. Then of course, there are the people who are like, great, all right, I've gone through the Sprint program, I have the job, how do I do the job, right? So insert scale, how do we help people navigate the first...
  
  you know, drinking from a fire hose few months in the role to make sure that they, you know, establish a really strong foundation. You have always handled what happens after that. Tell me about all the work that comes with or just tell me more about the coaching that you've done for the folks who are beyond the 90 days but still need coaching. What does that look
  
  Jess Sherlock (13:22.077)
  Yeah. So the folks that I work with and have worked with, they have landed the job, sometimes on purpose, sometimes accidentally. Quite often, I was the closest person when there was an opening on the product team. And there's a moment for folks where they realize, or they start questioning, am I doing this right? You know, maybe I've never formally been trained or I don't...
  
  Blair Presley Bone (13:45.923)
  Yeah.
  
  Jess Sherlock (13:51.741)
  have a supportive manager, or maybe I don't even have a manager who has a background in product. Maybe I'm a solo PM on a team and I'm Googling endlessly, I'm listening to every podcast I can possibly get my hands on, and I feel like I have all this knowledge and all this awareness of, like, I know, I know what I need to do. But there's this gap between
  
  knowing and actually applying it in your organization with your stakeholders on your product. So the magic with the coaching that I offer is it isn't a course where you're going to get another one size fits all framework or template. And then when it doesn't work in your company, it's another thing you put in the trash pile. But instead, I deeply understand the context that you're in, the team you have, whether or not you have
  
  complementary resources, like maybe you don't have a data person, maybe you don't have a designer, right? So what you should be doing as a PM is different because of your unique context. And in understanding what you're trying to achieve in your career, I can help you use this season of your career, this particular job, to not only grow your skills to be a better PM, but to also make sure that you're investing in the skills and experience.
  
  that are gonna get you to whatever your definition of success is. what I think still surprises people, but is I see it so much I can't be surprised anymore. You we like to think that product is now mature in some sense. And maybe it is at certain very large established product organizations that are spotlighted on certain podcasts where, know, they,
  
  Blair Presley Bone (15:20.354)
  Mm-hmm.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (15:39.392)
  Oof.
  
  Jess Sherlock (15:46.941)
  have like a company like Netflix maybe has, you know, 10,000 experiments they're running every day and they have a custom maybe testing platform and experimentation platform and an entire team dedicated to it. And that's all lovely and great. But if you're working in the Midwest at a legacy bank who is for the first time ever developing a mobile app to support their customer experience, chances are your organization is not doing good product. And
  
  leaning on your leadership in that company, chances are you're not going to grow in the way that's going to be most beneficial to your career long term. You may develop poor habits. You may not be data-driven. You may fall into the trap of just building features, not measuring outcomes. And so an outside perspective from a coach like me is often the thing that can help someone get that broader perspective about what really are my skill gaps.
  
  What does success in my career mean? Maybe it means climbing the PM career ladder, but a fair amount of the time it's becoming an entrepreneur or it's moving into some other senior leadership role like an operations role. And so it can be really difficult if you're in an organization where you're just trying to keep up and you don't have someone helping you see the path that's gonna get you to where you actually wanna go.
  
  especially if your dream is to get somewhere with a more mature product organization, you need to make sure that in the time you have where you have this title and you're doing product work, you get really good quality reps. I talk about it as reps all the time with my clients that you may not have full control over how the company prioritizes or roadmaps or anything, but you do have an opportunity, even if your manager isn't asking you to do it a certain way, to figure out how could I approach this project.
  
  in a way that gets it done, my leaders are happy, but I also get a good accomplishment, a good story to put on my resume and to use in future interviews. That's gonna resonate with a more mature product organization.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (17:55.832)
  something else that you do that you're not mentioning that I love that you do is how you create, here's this word again, but community for PMs, regardless of where they are in their journey, right? So often I would get the people who are like, I've got to work for a big brand, right? I've got to be an Apple, I've got to be a TikTok, I've got to be one of the ones.
  
  And then it's like, okay, they're there. You are zero to two years into your career. You don't know yet. And maybe that's it. Maybe you do. Maybe there's a really good reason for it. But what I love about the community is that you have the ability to connect with people who are actually already there. Or the people who have been there decided that that wasn't for them. And now you have perspective, right? Now you have perspective. Now you get to interface and connect with people who can share with you.
  
  What that experience is like and you are able as a client to see is this what I really want? Or did it just sound good?
  
  Jess Sherlock (19:01.103)
  So true. Yeah, there's a couple of perfect examples of that where folks have, like the most common example I say is people who are that solo PM or they come from a really small team and they have this feeling that every challenge they're facing is unique. No one else could possibly have a difficult stakeholder or a hippo type leader who comes in and demolishes my roadmap or whatever thing you think is unique to your product management journey.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (19:16.814)
  Mm-hmm.
  
  Jess Sherlock (19:31.365)
  It's really fun when I host group coaching inside the community and people get to share their experiences and their challenges. And one of the most common things that I hear is, I experienced that too. I thought that was just me.
  
  Yeah, or the other thing like you said is the range of folks that I like to work with are roughly in the like, call it about three years to about 10 years. So we're not talking about necessarily super junior folks, because by the time they've gone through this print program, scale program, they've probably got already a couple years of experience in product adjacent or product work without the product title. So by the time they're coming into the Shine program, they're a few years in.
  
  But inside the community, there are also folks who are a little bit further along in the journey. And there have been plenty of situations where, for example, I've had a few folks who are lead PMs or even director level PMs who maybe are only six, seven years into their career, but they've stumbled into these roles because they have a long history at a company. And if you're a newer PM and you get to hear what the day-to-day actually looks like.
  
  and realize that the role is quite different when you need to start to manage people or you need to start to be in executive meetings more often. It can be a way of trying it on. I use this phrase a lot with my clients. Like the only way to get clarity is to take action. So how can we try this on? If you think you're excited about being a director, how could you try that on? And that can be difficult, right? You suppose you can listen to podcasts or hear from people, but getting
  
  thrown in a community with folks like that and being able to hear their stories directly in a confidential, safe space can be really powerful to helping you sort of try that future on to see if it might be for you. And those relationships really have lasted. I've had funny situations where folks who happen to be in the same city will dial into group coaching and they'll surprise me by like shifting the camera over.
  
  Jess Sherlock (21:40.059)
  And there's actually two of them. They've been co-working in a coffee shop all morning and I'm like, no way. So there are these friendships that you get developed. It's not just another vanilla networking event.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (21:46.03)
  All right.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (21:55.542)
  Yeah, I've seen that too. It's pretty cool. People going through the same cohort to your point, same city, maybe shared identity in some way. And then the next thing you know, you see them at brunch on Instagram. And it's like, well now I feel left out, you know?
  
  Jess Sherlock (22:11.771)
  Yeah, what the heck? My dream is to do a retreat. So someday, I'll get everybody in person.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (22:16.59)
  Yeah, for sure. I have a question for you, but I think I have to provide some context first. My question is related to like, why did you want this? Like what inspired you to want to take ownership of the business that I I shared with you that I was descaling. So for context, I started, well, you know this and my clients,
  
  Previous clients knew this, but maybe the whole pod community didn't know this, but started the Sprint program five years ago in 2020. It was also the same year that I decided to go back for my hopeful last degree, right? I was starting my doctoral journey in 2020 and was coaching, running a business, writing a dissertation, starting to teach adjunct.
  
  All at once, was just like a lot happening. once I decided that, you know, I think there's another way that I can solve this problem that we're experiencing in product, and I think it's through academia. I couldn't hold it all anymore. And honestly, I think because I was struggling so much for a number of years, I decided that I wanted to simplify, which coincided with the time that I talked to you, where I said, yeah, I'm thinking about figuring out how to de-scale.
  
  the business so that I can create space for academia because I believe that there's a space for product management to be taught undergrad. I've done a ton of research, very few schools are teaching product, period. Maybe in a certificate program that's aimed at working adults, fine, but as a part of a master's program, yeah, there are 20 plus now, there a lot of universities, but.
  
  a growing number certainly in the last five years, but at the undergraduate level, so few. And I decided that that's the problem that I wanted to tackle. have an amazing, amazing leadership team that understands the vision and agrees. So that's something that we're taking action on. And I really wanted to focus and still want to focus my attention there, exposing students who are 21 years of age to product management. Sidebar to my sidebar.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (24:42.208)
  is that I've just wrapped my first semester of teaching that class. And just over the moon, man, there's students who are saying, I've never knew what a product manager was before, had no clue. And now I'm searching for APM roles, or now I know that this is available to me. So maybe I'll start in sales first and then transition, or maybe I'll...
  
  You know, I now know that it's an option and that lets me know that I'm on the right path because students are there. One more thing, another sidebar to that sidebar. Because most of my students are seniors, I get a lot of career-esque questions and I had a student last week tell me that they had an interview for a product analyst role or something like that. And they asked, one of the interview questions was,
  
  Are you familiar with roadmaps? And she's like, I was able to say, actually, yes, I am. Yes, look at this, right? She's like, six months ago, I had no idea what that was, like where we're traveling to, right? But she's like, in this interview, I was able to do it, and then the next class, she told me she got the offer. And that's the best feeling. I mean, to be in April, May, and you're a senior and you don't have an offer, it's the worst feeling ever.
  
  Jess Sherlock (25:42.801)
  I made one.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (26:03.982)
  So to know that you were able to grab one at the end because of your product management training that honestly if you had attended any other school, you know, she wouldn't have been able to capture in that same way is the best feeling for me. So I feel aligned, right? I feel like I'm doing the right thing in exposing product to academia, which is what I told you I wanted to do when we talked last year. And I said that I am...
  
  I'm considering de-scaling. And you said, wait.
  
  Jess Sherlock (26:36.177)
  I did, I did. Wait a minute, what? Well, hold on, I need to sidebar back to your sidebar. This individual, cause this will glimpse, this will be a glimpse for folks of why this whole thing makes sense. This individual who just landed a role, do they need support with their first 90 days?
  
  Blair Presley Bone (26:52.28)
  Period, I can pass her on. got you.
  
  Jess Sherlock (26:56.993)
  so there's a few reasons why this was enticing to me, but the short version is I, I don't ever want to work for anyone else. I love working for myself. I love the ins and outs of running a business. It is the, in my opinion, the ultimate product management experience. It's fun. I like the independence. like.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (27:24.014)
  I'll put you off until you beat it. You're also so effing good at it. By the way, I tell you all the time.
  
  Jess Sherlock (27:31.069)
  When it's a natural talent though, it's hard to see it. like, what do you see? This is a, we'll have a bit of a coaching moment. Like, what do you see that I don't see? Cause I feel like I'm winging it 99%.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (27:37.07)
  you
  
  Blair Presley Bone (27:43.95)
  No, you do have a natural talent for it. And I think what rings true for me is that I'm watching you do this. I'm watching you run this business, incorporating sprint and scale into your ecosystem and make it 10 times better than I ever could.
  
  Yeah, big hearts. You are. Like when you show me how you are helping clients in ways that I thought about or dreamed about but wasn't able to quite put into action and you're able to do it so quickly, it's inspiring. So I just, you were talking and you probably don't even know what you were saying, but.
  
  Jess Sherlock (28:25.853)
  No, but thank you. I've always, always, always, I may not have known these specific words, looking back, it's very clear to me that working for myself, building a business, was always the dream.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (28:45.697)
  Yeah.
  
  Jess Sherlock (28:47.175)
  Funny story, I'm in my new office, newish. I actually built this around COVID. I think at the time we had our call way back when I was working in a tiny corner of my guest bedroom in a dark back area of my house. And this office was being built before it was like cool and normal to work from home. But over the years of like settling in here, I found old paperwork, you know, I had to figure out what to do with things. And recently going through old tax paperwork, I discovered that I had been freelancing.
  
  I even forgot about this period of time. I was freelancing and essentially working for myself as a production support person. So whether that was doing editing for video productions, lighting, or even audio. And I've just like over and over again in my career found myself drawn to situations where I could control what I was working on, who I was working with, what I was charging. And I've just really been always been drawn to that. It's probably also because
  
  I have parents who had very flexible schedules. My mom being a school bus driver, didn't work in the summers. My dad working for himself could very easily take half a day off. That punk was golfing yesterday, right? Like that's just what you do. And so I do work hard, but I like being able to reap the benefits of that hard work. Cause when I have worked for other people, it's the reward isn't there. Maybe I need to go into sales like you did, but.
  
  When you're working a salary job with no commission, there's not an upside to go above and beyond. And so this aligns really well with my natural tendency to go all in. But a little background, like in that maybe six to 12 months before you and I had the conversation, I don't even know if you know this. I was actively investigating what it would look like for me to buy a business of my own. And even backing up, but side note, I worked at a startup.
  
  I then was kind of working for myself as a instructor at General Assembly. I was taking on some coaching clients. I was also for, I think, four or five local startups here in the Denver area. I was a fractional product leader where I would come in for a very short period of time, six to nine months, kind of evaluate how their product organization was running, identify gaps in the team, and help them hire their kind of nucleus for the team, build it out, and then see my way out the door.
  
  Jess Sherlock (31:13.027)
  And I was like trying to figure out like, this isn't really a business. It's a glorified freelance situation. And then, you know, my coaching started to take off, but I was definitely, I never built my coaching business with the intent of having scale, no pun intended, like your business. And I think you did a really good job of setting up programs and identifying those repeatable processes inside the programs. And
  
  On the other hand, I had set up some semblance of programs, but they were definitely much more fluid, very, very custom, very personalized. And so that path to scale always seemed a bit out of reach with how I was running my business at the time. So I had actually started to think about purchasing a business that had nothing to do with tech. So I've always questioned how much I want to be in tech, and I guess that's a separate podcast episode. But I was actively evaluating
  
  um, plumbing companies, electrical companies. I found a fence company I was actually very excited about. Their numbers were incredible. Even had some real estate in an industrial part of Denver. It was like a 30 year old fencing company. And it didn't really matter so much to me what the business was, but I like unbeknownst to you when we had our conversation, I mean, I was on BizBuySell and some other websites.
  
  like other people would be flipping through Instagram. I knew every local business that was for sale. So I'd be driving with a friend and be like, that laundromat's for sale. that car wash is for sale. They're like, how do you know that? Because I'm frequenting the lists. So it really felt serendipitous when I think you and I had a shared client at the time. I wanted to get a rundown of what was going on. So I suggested to check in. I don't think I had any idea.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (32:46.84)
  you
  
  Jess Sherlock (33:04.441)
  of what you were thinking or what's going on. I genuinely was just like, it's been long enough. We should probably talk. Also, I'm curious about this client. And when we did the call and you said, I'm thinking about descaling, it was so obvious to me that it was like, this is the thing. Like I've been wanting to buy something that's scalable where I could make it, you know, I could buy it and then build on top of it. And it was such a perfect foundation for what I was already doing. And I trusted your judgment immensely. Plus,
  
  it would have broken my heart for it to disappear from the world. Like genuinely, over the years I had referred so many people to your program that when you said it was going away, I was like, well, who am I gonna send people to? Like, we can't, we can't get, I think that's the first thing I said to you. was like, what are you gonna do with those? What you gonna do with those?
  
  Blair Presley Bone (33:48.5)
  You did, you did. And it was right for me too. I felt this like anticipatory guilt, if that's a thing, because I knew that if I'd be scaled at the top of 2025 so that I could focus on new passion and new problem, that inevitably I'd get a prospect or someone saying, I need help. And I would not know where to send them. And I would guilt myself back in.
  
  to coaching in a way that didn't or wouldn't feel aligned, right, for the time. So when you said that you were interested, given your knowledge, given your background, your experience with coaching, I knew it was perfect. So I'm so glad that it worked out the way that it did, which you saved me the guilt. And ultimately, clients still have a place to go.
  
  Jess Sherlock (34:45.341)
  Blair Presley Bone (34:47.446)
  Yeah, we're not leaving them to choose if I I'm gonna say it's my podcast I could say it we're not leaving them to choose like seedy people, right
  
  Jess Sherlock (34:55.586)
  Mm-hmm. Guaranteed job placement.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (34:58.998)
  Right? Right? And when you get that job, give me all of your money. we're not, we're not leaving them to the seedy folks. So I'm really grateful that people who have the need still have a solution and it still exists with someone who I trust fully. You know? I think about the people, not just the people who I don't know yet, right? Or for the people who would have been prospects, but my past clients, just because you've gone through Sprint once doesn't mean that you may not need it again.
  
  Jess Sherlock (35:17.213)
  Yeah.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (35:29.134)
  Right? Every job search is different. If you landed a job via Sprint in 2022, it is different in 2025. The program has evolved with the times. We weren't using, GEN.AI was just kind of budding and like this, like, I don't know type of thing that we weren't really leveraging in our job searches back in 2021. you know, literally the whole world has changed. So it's likely that those same folks who are familiar with Sprint.
  
  will need Sprint again and I did not want those resources to go away. basically thank you for looking out for my peoples. I appreciate you.
  
  Jess Sherlock (36:08.669)
  Hey, thank you for being open to it. That says a lot that you were willing to consider it. And I can like vividly remember that moment too, because in my head, all the alarm bells were going off was, is the business, the business you've been looking for, it's right here, it's right here, it's right here. But you didn't know that, right? I didn't want to scare you away. But I was also like, how do I be clear? I am very interested.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (36:10.626)
  Mm-hmm.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (36:33.421)
  Yes.
  
  Yeah. Yeah.
  
  Jess Sherlock (36:37.873)
  Yeah, but in hindsight, the universe is probably giggling at us because we've said, we've we've said many times and I think even clients today who I had some clients, of course, who are in my programs while this acquisition and transition was happening, who as it was as the new programs were coming in and they would see maybe like clips of you inside the community or whatever. The thing I kept hearing was, don't really notice a change.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (36:42.41)
  I'm sorry.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (37:07.662)
  Mm.
  
  Jess Sherlock (37:07.869)
  Like, it's, see, Blair just kind of fits in. That's what I heard over and over and over again. My folks were like, no, it's weird. Like, Blair just kind of seems like she's in my routine. And you and I have joked, it's like, man, if we could go back to that conversation 2020, should we have joined forces then?
  
  Blair Presley Bone (37:27.006)
  and yes yes
  
  Jess Sherlock (37:29.533)
  Can you imagine? What would we have named the business? It probably would have been BPJS, because that's the name of all of our meetings.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (37:39.298)
  Seriously. And associates or something. Yeah, I did. I do recall the first time that I felt that sense of regret because you're so freaking good and complimentary in areas where I am not. So yeah, I mean, I'm grateful for now. Okay, cool. this would have been phenomenal the way that we would have been able to serve more people.
  
  Jess Sherlock (37:44.509)
  You heard him?
  
  Jess Sherlock (38:00.795)
  Yeah.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (38:05.614)
  when they needed it most in 2020, 2021, 2022 would have been great.
  
  Can I pick your brain some more?
  
  Jess Sherlock (38:14.173)
  Please, I got brain left.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (38:16.526)
  have plenty, plenty left. I don't know what your knees look like, but I know you got plenty. I'm curious to know, when you think about the business and your clients and the people you want to help go forward, describe them for me. And I know it's a little bit different from sprint to scale to shine. Even the community feature that you have, which I think is great, right? Like a super accessible way.
  
  Jess Sherlock (38:21.211)
  You
  
  Blair Presley Bone (38:45.132)
  But talk to me about the people that you want to help.
  
  Jess Sherlock (38:49.725)
  Yeah.
  
  thing that comes to mind most clearly, I would say, are the folks...
  
  who feel like they're not getting what they need from what's out there right now. So I think about the PM who's working at a old school contract management company in Minnesota. I'm thinking about the person in Indiana who landed a job at a big investment firm working on their technical.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (39:06.209)
  Mm-hmm.
  
  Jess Sherlock (39:30.501)
  elements. I'm thinking of the PM at the B2B organization who's being asked to build a feature that is not quite honestly used by or needed by customers, but it is believed that it will help close a deal. You know, like the PM at a company who desperately wants to be outcome oriented, but can't seem to figure out how to
  
  Blair Presley Bone (39:47.339)
  Mm-hmm.
  
  Jess Sherlock (40:01.373)
  inspire or evangelize that concept in their organization. So if you are at a company where product is mature, it's effective, it's a respected part of the organization, you don't find yourself needing to educate everyone else in the organization constantly about what product does, congratulations. But that is not the majority of PMs. think a...
  
  Blair Presley Bone (40:19.21)
  Mm-hmm. Right.
  
  Jess Sherlock (40:29.533)
  I believe it was product school who does their product management, state of product management report every year. It was a couple years ago, they determined that something like more than 75 % of PMs are actually B2B PMs. And B2B PMs just, I think have it the hardest.
  
  Jess Sherlock (40:48.891)
  So I guess it's two things. If you feel like you're walking a path that isn't represented by the resources and the books and the podcasts that exist today in the product management world, this is the place for you.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (41:07.33)
  Mm-hmm.
  
  Jess Sherlock (41:09.525)
  Or if you feel like you have been out collecting every possible certification, you've taken every course, you've downloaded every single perfect template from LinkedIn or wherever else, and you just can't get it done, you can't seem to figure out how to get that thing to work in your company, this is the place for you. Or if you're trying to break into product.
  
  You you feel like you've been doing product work, but you maybe haven't had the title, and you just need someone who can help translate all that great experience to make you marketable, this place is for you. So there's no ego. There are folks in the community, certainly with impressive brands and logos, but I'll tell you, their teams aren't perfect either. And product looks different.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (41:49.678)
  Thank
  
  Jess Sherlock (42:05.403)
  depending on the company that you're at, depending on the maturity of the organization, depending on the maturity of the product. And so if you feel like you're not getting the support and direction that you need from the team around you.
  
  I'm here to help. And I'll do it in a down to earth, relatable way. I am who I am. I'm like this in sessions, although the mic is not in view, right? That'd be obnoxious. But people often describe me as like the manager they wish they had, right? Or they'll be like, my manager has never given me feedback that is so helpful.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (42:21.367)
  I love that.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (42:42.094)
  Yeah.
  
  Jess Sherlock (42:48.999)
  I'm known for my analogies. I make a lot of analogies to houses and dating. And I just try to, don't know, product at some point got put up on this pedestal and I try to bring it down a notch. Cause product people are creative and like motivated and like aggressively accomplishment oriented. And often their environment is just not supportive of that.
  
  I want to help create an environment that is safe, that is energizing, that can rebuild your confidence and your clarity of what success means in your career.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (43:28.64)
  Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I love that. This reminds me, This reminds me of... Okay, shameless plug, but not really. Of my dissertation.
  
  Jess Sherlock (43:43.803)
  Ooh, dissertation. You're so smart.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (43:45.346)
  which sounds so nerdy, but really I just really wanted to research. Okay, let's be clear. The podcast is product manager. We know my passions. We know my passions are related to product and accessibility and creating pathways for people who may have a difficult time to get there or see themselves there. So my dissertation topic was focused on...
  
  wondering if there was a relationship between gender and career advancement or really barriers to career advancement specifically within product. And I looked at gender in this instance in a binary sense because it's my dissertation and there's also a part it's like, please don't make this more complicated than it already is because a dissertation just felt like one big haze. But essentially I wanted to know if women found it more difficult.
  
  or found more barriers to career advancement than men specifically in product. There are six areas that I, I don't know, have we talked about this? I don't if we've talked about.
  
  Jess Sherlock (44:48.507)
  No, I know, I think I've read your abstract, but I haven't gotten the tea about the, so spill it.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (44:52.494)
  Okay, let's get into it. So I looked at an existing study that looked at barriers to career advancement in six different areas. If I'm being nitpicky, I could critique some of the six different areas because there's some things I think are missing, but the six that they went with were cultural fit, exclusion from informal networks, lack of mentoring.
  
  core organizational career management processes, difficulty getting developmental assignments, and difficulty obtaining opportunities for geographic mobility.
  
  Jess Sherlock (45:32.625)
  definitely see the impact of at least three of those in the majority of folks who end up looking for help with me. Yeah.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (45:39.788)
  And that's what I wanted to talk about. our study showed, and I'm curious to know what you're seeing from a practical coaching perspective. Now, the study was quantitative, meaning that I needed a statistical significance to show that, there is a difference here. Like there can be a difference, and I'll tell you the areas where there were, where women, per the study, saw or experienced a greater
  
  barrier if you were a stronger barrier, but there was only one where it was statistically significant and that oddly enough, well not oddly enough, it's not odd, we know this, is lack of cultural fit.
  
  Jess Sherlock (46:21.597)
  Tell me more.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (46:22.988)
  Yeah, this is the one where, and again, this is quantitative, so the qual isn't there, so we don't have the depth of the tell me why's of it all, right? But essentially the space of where women found that, or would report that not feeling a part of the culture was a barrier to their career progression, which is a bummer. Now there's lots of existing research that talks about the tech bro at all.
  
  you know, how many, like what the culture is that, you know, precedes them and how it works for maybe a working mom or what that looks like for others or lots of existing research that talks about that. So that didn't surprise me, but it wasn't the only space where we over-indexed, right? In fact, actually I'll do it in this way. The two that weren't significant at all in this study were difficult to getting developmental assignments because...
  
  we're gonna get hard stuff to do, right? That's one that wasn't statistically significant. Now there was the opportunity for geographic mobility. So those two weren't big deals. However, lack of mentoring, women found that to be a stronger barrier to career advancement than men, not statistically significant in this study, but yes, women found that to be a stronger barrier more so than men.
  
  and exclusion from informal networks was another. And to me, that's very complimentary to that lack of culture fit. Again, in the study, wasn't statistically significant, but showed more. The one I found interesting, though, was poor organizational career management processes. Now, what this means is not how we, not how the person manages the career, but how the organization
  
  sets up processes to either provide resources or clarity around career advancement. You know, that's the only one where men found that that was a higher barrier to their ability to advance in their career than women.
  
  Jess Sherlock (48:38.077)
  I'm like that Giphy with all the calculations.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (48:39.31)
  Yes, yes, yes, yes. That's the only one which I found to be very interesting. Men found in this study that poor organizational career management processes essentially is like the reason why they weren't able to advance, which I find notable. It's not that women didn't find it as problematic, it was just the reverse. Men said this more so.
  
  So I'm curious, I'm curious, how much of this resonates with what your clients are experiencing relative to their barriers in career advancement specifically in product?
  
  Jess Sherlock (49:22.717)
  So, whoo, very. So it's probably worth noting as I've tracked my client base over the years.
  
  It's not the grand majority, but I certainly lean female in my client base to the tune of like 60-40, probably on average over all these years. But even given that, I will definitely say most of the time, even today, when we claim product management is more mature and understood.
  
  it's most of the time clients that I work with do not have any career growth documentation to reference. I, as a part of my Shine program offer a skills assessment as well as a, so product management skills assessment, as well as a sort of salary and title calibration, I call it a career calibration, with the idea being like, let me give you an,
  
  expert analysis of whether or not your title, your salary, et cetera, is aligned with the job that you're actually doing today. And it's a bit art meets science, obviously, because it is slightly different at all companies. But one of the questions I ask folks always in the kickoff is to say, hey, if your company has a career ladder of some kind, please share it with me. Give me a screenshot, something.
  
  I will also ask folks, how do you know that you are being successful in your role? What do you need to do to get this promotion that you're excited about? And more often than not, folks cannot answer that question because performance reviews typically are aligned around values, company values, which is cool. Don't get me wrong, right? It's like, is this person exhibiting the value of like, you know, collaborate all the time? And that's great.
  
  Jess Sherlock (51:35.729)
  When you're not getting, for example, feedback about are you moving in the right direction? Like, let's say you're moving from a PM to a senior PM. One of the things I'm often educating folks on is like what that actually looks like in practice. I'm actually working on a whole episode about PM leveling 101, because this is a conversation I've had so many times. But when it comes to this, like you're saying, the organization supporting that career growth.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (51:57.954)
  it.
  
  Jess Sherlock (52:04.591)
  If there is no scorecard or worse, if the scorecard is actually not in alignment with what the broader market is expecting of a product manager, that individual is just set up for failure, both in that organization, but also if and when they end up out on the job market. So I absolutely see that. It's something that I spend a lot of time with, with folks I work with, making sure that they understand what really is important in the career growth.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (52:14.111)
  Thank
  
  Jess Sherlock (52:33.073)
  So they're focused on the right things. They're taking the right opportunities and they're advocating for themselves in the right way. And a lot of it is very subtle. It's like thinking more strategically. It's having higher level conversations. It's being able to work with more autonomy or navigate more complexity and ambiguity. So these are not like go get certified in SQL and all of sudden you're a senior. It's very squishy things. So a hundred percent companies are, they're just sort of throwing these PMs to the wolves.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (52:56.033)
  Okay.
  
  Jess Sherlock (53:02.971)
  and saying, go do these projects and if we feel like you did a good job. It's a lot of politics. like the most well-liked person might end up with a promotion.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (53:12.062)
  It's crazy when you think about it though, right? That's one of the reasons why scale was so important to me. And people don't know that they need it sometimes until it's too late.
  
  Jess Sherlock (53:20.829)
  exactly, get folks who are like, I've been here, I can vividly remember someone I spoke to in the last few weeks who said, I have just been at Senior for six years at three different companies, like and I can't, like what is the problem?
  
  Blair Presley Bone (53:35.712)
  Yeah, yeah, don't realize they need it until it's too late. Or, you know, they've interviewed with a company, company sounds great. They get there and realize like they literally do not have a plan for me. They don't know what I'm really supposed to be focused on beyond the first week of basically paperwork. And it's up to me now.
  
  Jess Sherlock (53:49.565)
  Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, yeah.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (54:01.43)
  In some instances, that may work okay. Like you may stumble and figure it out, but how many opportunities do you miss? Right? How much time do you waste? Because you're in a situation where you don't have the ability to, comfort really yet, to maybe talk to your manager about the hard things. So you want someone that you can kind of explain the context to and ask, like literally, what do I do?
  
  Jess Sherlock (54:11.473)
  And how much time do you waste?
  
  Blair Presley Bone (54:28.942)
  I could go in 12 different directions here, but tell me the one that I need to focus on that's gonna give me the best ROI. And it's an investment, not just in you as a professional, but in your finances, because you're able to do the work that's gonna get you the promotion a lot faster. So, okay, so you invest in coaching today, cool. You give that money back in your...
  
  in your next salary that comes a year or two years faster than before. Like we were talking about a client, a beloved client of ours, because this is someone who went through the Sprint program, got the perfect job for him. You know who I'm talking about. Perfect job for him. Dream job via the Sprint program came back, did scale with me, killing it.
  
  Jess Sherlock (55:16.465)
  Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Dream job.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (55:28.076)
  like killed it, you know, in the first 90 days. And now it's been what? Less than a year in the role. And it's like, without feeling the beans, but right, like being positioned for what's next. And I could not be more proud of them. And I think if they were on a guest on the show, they would say, because of coaching, because I knew what to do when I had the confidence and the context and the reason why.
  
  Jess Sherlock (55:51.453)
  Yeah, absolutely.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (55:56.716)
  And I had someone to share my work with first to say, this right? Am I thinking about this right?
  
  Jess Sherlock (56:03.391)
  my gosh, yeah, so you had mentioned the lack of mentorship. And this is something that, ugh, okay, can I get on my soapbox for a second? So mentorship feels, think sometimes it's it's talked about as this like, touchy-feely throwaway optional thing.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (56:07.149)
  Mm-hmm.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (56:13.195)
  it.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (56:23.714)
  Mm-mm.
  
  Jess Sherlock (56:25.969)
  But really coaching at its best is a shortcut, right? Coaching and mentorship at its best is a shortcut. It is an accelerator. It is a clarifier.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (56:30.862)
  Okay.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (56:38.241)
  Mm-hmm.
  
  Jess Sherlock (56:40.251)
  The situations that we're talking about with specific client examples, like what they boil down to is someone being faced with a challenge, perhaps an organizational politics challenge, a interpersonal relationships challenge, or maybe a hard trade-off decision challenge, whatever it is. When you can speak to someone who has been through that challenge before, or a similar challenge like that before, it will make you faster.
  
  And if you are faster and making fewer mistakes, you will be viewed as more valuable in the organization and you will be more likely to get that promotion. So it's always funny to me when folks question the value of coaching and it seems like an unnecessary thing, right? Like everything we do here, I could do by myself. Like, yes, a hundred percent, right? I'm not, I'm not.
  
  bringing a magic wand that you don't have. But what I am doing and what you have done with folks is you eliminate all of that trial and error. We've done the trial and error, like with you and Sprint. Someone doesn't need to go Google or look at 17 different resume templates to figure out like what's the right way to do it nowadays. It's done, you get your resume.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (58:00.108)
  done and it's done within a week.
  
  Jess Sherlock (58:05.275)
  You don't have to futz with it. You don't have to worry whether it's working or not, or if you use the right font type, or if it's going to work with an ATS system. you know all this stuff. It's the unknown unknowns that coaching helps with.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (58:15.946)
  Mm-hmm. Yeah. And the thing too that pisses me off are the folks who are like, I don't need it because I have ChatGPT, right? Like, do you? Now you're right. I think I shared with you, sidebar to the sidebar to the sidebar, I shared with you a student, I think I did, a student homework assignment where they all use ChatGPT. I have like 12 responses of the same thing, right? Like the sentence says, in just a few seconds, in just a
  
  Jess Sherlock (58:37.648)
  Yes!
  
  Blair Presley Bone (58:45.62)
  They all got the same response. So now as I'm grading 40 papers and I see that 12, 15 of them have the same little phrase there, it's because you all use chat GPT. So when I put up the slide in the classroom, they're like, eek, turning red, like, you got me, type of thing. You don't think that happens on your resume too?
  
  Jess Sherlock (59:06.109)
  100 % it happens.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (59:07.788)
  And I actually recently saw on LinkedIn someone who I just wanted to find them and go hug them in person. So hiring manager who says, honestly, I discard the obvious AI resumes. Discard. That's your cheat code. Is a cheat code if they're all using the same thing? No.
  
  Jess Sherlock (59:21.383)
  doesn't surprise me.
  
  Jess Sherlock (59:27.549)
  Yeah, And here's the thing. In this job market, and there's an entire episode on this, if you're curious how, you know, we keep saying things have changed over the last few years in the product management job market. They have. If you want a deep dive, go check out my podcast, After the Cert. But the thing about coaching, whether it is coaching on your job search, coaching in your first 90 days, or coaching towards a promotion or growth in your current role.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (59:44.974)
  of
  
  Jess Sherlock (59:57.213)
  Coaching is not the solution to take you from zero to good. Coaching at its best takes you from good to great, which is the real investment because in this market when you're job searching or if you have a job and you're trying to nail it or you have a job and you're trying to make a great impression, good doesn't matter anymore.
  
  Great is what matters and great looks like fewer mistakes, faster to outcomes, smarter decisions, and you get that with strong mentorship. We're obviously partial to coaching, but if you decide to work with us, great, but please take it to heart when we say get mentorship somehow forever in your career.
  
  An old boss mine said, you know, the best way to ensure you're always growing in your career is to have someone, at least one person who's ahead of you on the journey and at least one person who is earlier than you on your journey. So that in any given time, you can both be a mentor, but you can also be a mentee. And so if you want the cheat code for that, right? My community's great for that. You have that built in automatically.
  
  But that is the real accelerator nowadays and chat GPT will play a role. But humans and that outside perspective is never gonna replace it ever.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (01:01:32.78)
  always queen, always queen. It's the thing, I sent a chat GPT email to someone for time and had a little shame in it because, I don't know, I pride myself on genuine human connection and you they replied with another obvious chat GPT response and I'm like, look at us, look at us, just botting each other up, right?
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:01:59.643)
  Botton each other up. Hashtag we're botton.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (01:02:03.374)
  We are button right and it you know, we can feel it. No one wants that feeling so Yeah, I think I think coaching is a cheat code for so many things and unfortunately we see it as a luxury Rather than you know the thing that we actually need to help us to facilitate our goals It's kind of like therapy like how many of us 10 15 years ago were like, that's for fill in the blank ie not you Meanwhile, you let you keep living
  
  and you experience for many of us how important it is. I tell people if you have a dentist, you need a therapist. It's the same. You don't say like, I don't need a dentist. It's fine. Like, yes, you do.
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:02:45.373)
  I often say friends, right? Like, if you have friends, why do you have a therapist?
  
  Blair Presley Bone (01:02:50.527)
  in right?
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:02:52.733)
  Or if you have a therapist, why do you need friends? And the difference is the accountability factor and the ability to be completely selfish, right? You can go meet with your mentor, but what I hear from folks often is like, oh, I have a mentor, it's an old manager maybe, but more times I can count, people have said, I feel guilty reaching out too often or I feel guilty talking the whole time. Well, guess what? If you're doing a coaching session with me, the whole hour is yours.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (01:03:02.092)
  Mm-hmm.
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:03:22.085)
  and you want to meet every week and put tasks on me to help send you tailored learning resources, great, that's what I'm here for.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (01:03:29.144)
  Literally. And you have the exposure to what everyone else is doing right now. If you want to scoop on like, so what is it really like? Or I'm in fintech, I want to get into fintech. Do you know anyone? Well, yes, I do. Let's get into it. It's just a broader perspective that as a coach of so many people, you bring that. But there's, know, quite something else.
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:03:35.143)
  Mm-hmm.
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:03:45.201)
  Mm-hmm. Yeah.
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:03:50.791)
  Yeah.
  
  Yeah. Yesterday I was in a session with a client who, their product organization's pretty small and it's definitely a situation where the product is the enabler. It's not the thing they sell. But the whole topic of the conversation was roadmaps. They said, here's my roadmap. Is this even, is this what people do? What do roadmaps look like?
  
  And it was a great opportunity because I've seen a lot of roadmaps and I'll tell you, they all look different. I've seen PowerPoint slides, I've seen Miro boards, I've seen Excel spreadsheets, I've seen JIRA Gantt charts. I swear I've seen it all. And it was a great opportunity to share in that instance, a framework that I like as a starting point, but to talk about how this is the hard part about product, right? Is there is no right answer. It's not like being an engineer, right? How many...
  
  two by fours do I need to support a building of this size? It's like, how do I build a roadmap that my stakeholders agree with, align with, and understand? Well, we gotta try some things and iterate on it. And what works at this company in this role may not work at the next one. So that to me is where I love to see the growth in people when they start to realize...
  
  this addiction to finding the right answer is often the thing that misleads us. You have to be open to that exploring and iterating just like we do in our products.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (01:05:23.886)
  I say, yeah, very meta to product, for sure. So, can we talk about after the search?
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:05:26.365)
  Mm-hmm.
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:05:33.337)
  Yes, we've been teasing it a bunch.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (01:05:35.606)
  Yeah, tell me more. First of all, let's talk about the name AFTER THE CERT. After the cert, what does it mean? What inspired that?
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:05:47.739)
  Yeah, so it's really meant to be a nod to what I was just talking about with roadmaps, right? You could go take a roadmap certification course, but it's only gonna get you so far. And so what it's really about is all of the hard work in the space between a certification or a course or a formal, you know, reading a book on a particular topic and actually applying it.
  
  to your job search or to your day job, that, in my opinion, is the hardest work for product managers. Because there's no one perfect roadmap template, there's no one perfect strategy template, even PRD templates. You Google PRD templates, you will find 42 or 32,000 million, a lot, a gajillion.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (01:06:33.902)
  Jess Sherlock (01:06:42.907)
  Yeah, and this is not to, it's not to shame on courses or certifications. I think they're great. I think they have their place. You and I have both taught courses. I have even created, I think you know this, I created the product leader course at product school, right? So like I'm a big fan of courses, big fan, but they give you the knowledge. They don't teach you to do. And so AFTER THE CERT, I want to have that be a space for,
  
  practical, actionable, down to earth, plain English advice, where my dream is you listen to an episode and there is at least one thing you can do differently immediately.
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:07:31.035)
  It's not just another, let me talk to you about my theory on roadmaps or some perfect world, perfect product team situation for what an ideal roadmap or data-driven decision looks like. It's like, what do I do? This is my favorite example, okay? I'll give you my favorite example.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (01:07:49.891)
  Coming.
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:07:52.423)
  All right, I took a course on data-driven decision making in product. Awesome. Awesome. I think you should. I think we should all be data-driven. But then you go back to your team, you go back to your manager, and you say, here's a decision I'd like to make. I noticed that this whole part of our product, no one's using it. I think we should really look into that and consider sunsetting that part of the product. Or maybe refining it.
  
  Good luck!
  
  Blair Presley Bone (01:08:25.208)
  Right.
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:08:26.651)
  Right? That it's just not, I've seen time and time again, like you go get this new nugget of knowledge, you leave the course, you're so excited. yeah, we should totally do that. We should totally be data-driven. We should totally do outcome-oriented roadmaps. And then you go to your boss and you go, I think we should do this. And your boss goes, yeah, maybe later.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (01:08:46.702)
  Yep, mm-mm, that was cute. I guess I can't pay for that course, but not, I don't want you to put it into action. Just yet.
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:08:53.147)
  Mm-hmm. Yeah. And at the end of the day, I don't care about the company. They can choose to keep doing the wrong thing or the less productive thing. That's fine. I always tell my clients, I'm always like, I work for you. I want your career to be a success. So here's what I would tell you. If you now want to work like this, then you may not want, it may not make sense for you to be at this company. Or it may make sense for you to start being a change agent and
  
  Blair Presley Bone (01:09:17.486)
  huh.
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:09:23.901)
  approach this in a more strategic way of how do you get the organization to shift towards something that is going to be more effective, but it's not gonna be a quick Slack message on a screenshot of something cool you learned in the course. So it's about that messy, what does it actually take to succeed after you learned the thing? How do you apply it? How do you get buy-in on it? How do you actually implement those new phone skills?
  
  when the context of your situation and organization isn't always welcoming to it.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (01:09:57.74)
  Because I'm nosy, I want to know what topics you have lined up for the podcast.
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:10:02.233)
  Woo, I'd love to share. so episode one is out. It's a rundown of my background. So if you, like many folks I talk to, think that your path into product management is unique and you're a unique butterfly, I can tell you you're not. So episode one is all about my accidental journey in from film school. Episode two is a rundown of the market now in 2025. So if you're thinking about a job search or you're in a job search and it's not,
  
  taking off in the way that you had hoped you can listen to that and get some suggestions for changes you can make right away. Beyond that, I have some fun stuff lined up related to communication. So this is maybe one of the largest topics, but really learning how to iterate. So what we've been talking about here with roadmaps, for example, or shifting to a more data-driven practice, a lot of the work.
  
  to get your organization to improve the way it works or to get alignment on your ideas requires strong communication. It doesn't require some perfect template. So we'll have a lot of content on that. I also want to break down some of the differences between being a beta BPM and being a beta CPM. So if you've spent your entire career on one side of that or the other, you may be curious what it's like on the other side.
  
  I also have some content coming up on, I think I mentioned this, product management leveling 101. So if you're feeling like the path to growth in product is fuzzy, especially at your company, you're curious about what that might look like to grow in a way that's appealing to the broader job market. I'm going to dive into that. And then we'll have a series of interviews with previous clients to hear about the, you know, the hindsight stories of how did coaching impact their journey.
  
  what are they up to now and what does career growth really look like? We'll get into some of the messy details that you won't hear anywhere else.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (01:12:06.968)
  Those are some of my favorites, right? Talking to the folks who have been in places where people are considering or navigating in the moment and they need to hear from someone who's faced that same decision and to see what worked, what didn't work for them can be some of the most impactful stuff. The other thing, I obviously have taken a sneak peek at your, I'm probably saying too much, but well.
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:12:35.281)
  Do it.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (01:12:35.694)
  at your leveling framework and I'm in love. Can't wait for folks to hear your perspective, hear your vision on what that looks like and how they can leverage it to their advantage. So again, one of those examples of things that like, damn, I wish I would have thought of that. Like I wish I would have done it in that way and made it so simple for people to understand and clearly choose where they are. So.
  
  I won't steal your thunder not like I even could, but I think that is going to be a really, really impactful thing, not only for your podcast listeners, but for clients, period. They will benefit from that for many years to come.
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:13:21.713)
  Yeah, spoiler alert. I think titles are irrelevant.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (01:13:25.71)
  Mmm.
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:13:27.901)
  We'll leave it at that folks, so if you're curious, you should probably subscribe so you don't miss that episode.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (01:13:34.83)
  Yeah, AFTER THE CERT. Also something else people may be curious to know. Let's talk about plants and the connection between plants. Because I see them, right? Like there's what? Monstera back there, a Philodendron I think back there, a ZZ. Look at me knowing.
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:13:52.315)
  Yep. Yeah, no, look at you. Look at you. and this actually, this is a, these are cuttings of a pothos? Pothos? Please comment and tell me how to pronounce that. I still don't know. It's embarrassing. Yeah. And there's plenty more over here that you just can't see, but they're soaking up all the sun in the window.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (01:14:00.883)
  Okay, so let's have a talk.
  
  Girl, stop it. That's one thing.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (01:14:11.272)
  For those who are listening only, know that Jess's background was boss. Your office seems to be perfectly aligned with A, your brand, just the things I know that you enjoy, right? So 10 out of 10 for your office design. But I'm seriously curious to know what this theme, what is this common thread between plants?
  
  and your brand and then how does that translate for clients?
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:14:42.577)
  Yeah, I'm so glad you asked.
  
  It's really about growth.
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:14:54.929)
  When folks come to me for coaching or even for a course, there's this feeling of force. I wonder if you've seen this with people where it's like this eagerness to check a box and say, I have grown. I took this course, therefore I have grown. When really true path to growth in your career, in skill building, in expertise,
  
  It's more like how a plant grows. Much of it is invisible, right? I just planted some lilacs in my yard. I think I was telling you about that. I got three new bushes. And it doesn't look like anything's happening above the surface, but they are certainly taking root. And over time, there will be new leaves. Hopefully in a couple of years, there will be some blooms and blossoms. But what I...
  
  Really think is important is to embrace the path to growth and recognize that it is a forever journey. It's not this destination where if you just take the right combination of courses and go to the right number of conferences, you will suddenly be stamped an expert product manager. The field is evolving literally every day. Your products evolving every day. Our tools are evolving every day. And so your growth.
  
  should as well. And one of my favorite moments with plants is this, like the shiny new leaf moment. don't know, you don't have, well, you know you have one plant in your background, but.
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:16:41.155)
  Yeah, but one of my favorite moments, and I have a lot of them on stairs around the house, and they're, I think, especially beautiful when they shoot out a new leaf, but it's really sudden. there's all this growth happening that isn't visible. The roots growing or it taking in sunlight, whatever's happening, I don't know, I'm not a biologist. But at some point, all of a sudden, this new branch comes off.
  
  and this new leaf starts to unfurl and it's literally shiny. Like the monstera's especially, they look glossy and they're so fresh and new. It's like new baby skin maybe. And they're, you know, tender and delicate, but at some point they do unfurl and they strengthen, they deepen in color, they become part of the overall plant. And you kind of forget that at one point they were new.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (01:17:11.846)
  huh.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (01:17:37.024)
  Mm-hmm. Yes.
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:17:39.717)
  And that is the growth. And we are constantly, I think, measuring every day, did I get a new leaf? Did I get a new leaf? Did I get a new leaf? When really the measure each day is that care, the growth of the roots, the watering, the sunlight. And yes, at some point it bursts out a new leaf, but our growth often is not evident in the moment. It's evident in hindsight.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (01:18:00.878)
  Mm-hmm.
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:18:08.325)
  And so a lot of what I work with folks in the coaching process is that patience and the shifting of focus towards measuring yourself today against yourself yesterday, measuring yourself in this situation against this same situation last time. And I start every single session with every client with a win because we are so good at looking at everything we're not doing or looking at every leaf that is not bursting out of fresh, looking at all the things we have yet to learn.
  
  but we're not good at celebrating the wins we do face. And with some clients, it's uncomfortable at first, but celebrating wins starts to be, I think, a solid practice of seeing the growth that you are having and developing that patience to give yourself the time to grow and recognizing too that if you're not growing truly,
  
  you will, you sometimes need to change your environment. So I've seen folks who are in a particular organization or environment and they're just really floundering. And it's kind of like a plant when it's in a space, it's not getting the right amount of light or maybe too much light and you move it to a better environment. Oftentimes that's all it takes. You don't have to change the plant at all.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (01:19:08.248)
  Mm-hmm.
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:19:28.594)
  But.
  
  With that growth, the growth is what I see as allowing you to have the most success in your career. And I think what we expect is that you take a course and you like duct tape on a new leaf. like, all right, I'm gonna tape on this new sequel skill. I'm gonna tape on this new executive presence skill. But that's just the knowing. The knowing is good, it's step one. But the knowing is just like this much.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (01:19:44.494)
  success.
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:20:00.701)
  If you're not looking, I'm doing a little tiny, just a teeny bit. When you start to do it and it becomes habitual and you start, you when you run into friction and you learn to respond and not react, that's the growth. It's taking the knowing and applying it. And so, yeah, I guess, I hope that answers your question, but I just want folks to come as they are with your shit and all, their droopy leaves.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (01:20:27.574)
  in his shop.
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:20:30.289)
  and your brown edges on your plant leaves, and we'll fix it together. And if it looks like caring for the plant differently, caring for you differently, we'll do that. If it looks like shifting your environment, we'll do that. But that growth emerges and is visible usually far after we want it to be.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (01:20:52.782)
  I want to tell you something that you don't know yet.
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:20:55.357)
  Ooh, Coach Blair. I love when Coach Blair coaches the coach.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (01:20:59.82)
  that it's well, it's not even a coachable moment. It's just one of those moments where this just feels very full circle. We are often reminded like, no one knows but you and I how much we have talked, texted, voice noted. We've like blown up our text messages.
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:21:15.207)
  We froze up our iPhones with too many voice memos.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (01:21:16.76)
  Yeah, too many voice notes. But, okay, it's just a full circle moment here. You know when we're teaching product, because you and I have taught the same course, and we talk about competitive analysis, and your competitors are not always your direct competitors sometimes, or complimentary, or just something you're inspired by? Whenever I'm teaching that lesson, and I think you know exactly what slide I'm talking about,
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:21:45.629)
  Mm-hmm.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (01:21:45.934)
  Talk about how my coaching practice was inspired in part by a business that has nothing to do with product. And it is a greenhouse. It's Stanley's Greenhouse here in Knoxville. And I love them because I have a habit of over-watering. Like, I'm going to root rot a plant in a heartbeat, like plants that are almost impossible to root rot. Like I...
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:22:00.977)
  me more.
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:22:06.365)
  Mm.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (01:22:13.804)
  I'm ashamed to say that I've root rot-ed way too many snake plants, which is just really ridiculous, right? But I can take yet another one to Stanley's Greenhouse and with their planting table, they'll help me like, yep, it's root rot again. They'll replant it. They'll, you know, educate me, give me tools without judgment. And I will drive past three or four other places.
  
  to get to Stanleys on the other side of town, just for that sense of community, just for that education, just for that vibe, right? So that energy, that feeling is what I tried to create in my coaching program. I wanted people to feel comfortable coming.
  
  to sprint coming to scale, not perfect, because if you're perfect, then you don't need it, right? You got it, then you teach the course, right? But many of us have a little something that we wanna fix or have a little something that we may honestly feel a little shame about. And I wanted people to feel comfortable sitting down, plopping down, being honest, not shielding it, coming as you are. it's just, you don't...
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:23:18.589)
  Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:23:28.978)
  Yep.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (01:23:32.876)
  I don't think I've ever shared that with you, but it's not lost on me that you feel the same. That's how I knew that you would be the perfect person to carry on the Sprint scale legacy and incorporate it in the same way that you've handled your Shine clients. And I just love that people have full spectrum coverage in terms of product coaching support.
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:23:35.165)
  I don't think so, no.
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:23:43.367)
  No.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (01:23:59.896)
  from I need a new job to I'm starting a job to man I've been at this job, I need a promotion to again, I need a new job, right? It's all under the same roof with you and I love that, you know, that sentiment of come as you are, we'll fix it together. Wrapped in a plant analogy even, it's just, this isn't ironic. This is a thing, it's meant to be. Again.
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:24:08.253)
  you
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:24:27.357)
  The universe is giggling again.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (01:24:29.89)
  party giggle, but yeah, I felt similarly. That's, I'm also an easy crier, so look at me on the verge.
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:24:41.334)
  People are often, people often ask me, they're like, why does this feel a little bit like therapy? Like I got into a session with someone.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (01:24:48.622)
  you
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:24:51.591)
  All they're talking about is maybe their job search and how it's going so far. And all of a sudden they're getting a little bit choked up. like, yeah, it's emotional. We have a lot tied up in our jobs and our businesses. And I don't know, I'm always just like, I got tissues. Let's do it. I'll cry too. Let's get out like, yeah. And there's no judgment. There's no judgment. It's helpful. It tells me that we're talking about the thing that needs to be talked about that isn't getting talked about.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (01:25:06.027)
  Yeah.
  
  co-crier. Let's go.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (01:25:20.802)
  Right. That we can now fix.
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:25:23.709)
  No judgment.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (01:25:25.718)
  Yeah, I love it.
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:25:28.221)
  Career therapist, I suppose. I don't know if I can say that, but that's certainly what it feels like.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (01:25:33.838)
  specifically focused on product and about that focus that I think is really important like people would say like hey I want to pivot into customer success and I would say good for you not your girl
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:25:36.167)
  Yeah.
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:25:47.197)
  Yeah, or the opposite. I've had plenty of folks who say, I've been working with a career coach, but they just don't get it for product. And whether that's helping with how to handle the unique interview questions, the take-home assignment, the cases, or even just how to talk about accomplishments and skills on the resume. yeah, product is unique. The people are unique. The field is unique.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (01:25:57.167)
  huh.
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:26:16.263)
  had plenty of folks from other specialties or people who want to go into other specialties and I can help, but it's not, I am best at product. Product is what I live and breathe. I used to date a PM for goodness sake. I think my last two relationships with PMs, I just can't get away from them.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (01:26:35.97)
  That's hilarious and I'm gonna leave that right there.
  
  They were they were but you know that also goes to that there's so many commonalities between product and dating so I Think it's a good episode by the way, so that cracks me up Yes, what's next? What's next for you? How can people stay connected to you? What resources available? For people who are like, okay, I feel like this lady and I want to know more. What should people do?
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:26:42.973)
  They were not clients. They were friends.
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:26:55.845)
  Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:27:04.924)
  Yeah.
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:27:12.293)
  Yeah, absolutely. first of all, the podcast, absolutely. Since you're here on Spotify or Apple Podcasts or wherever you're getting this podcast, look up AFTER THE CERT or look up my name, Jess Sherlock, three S's, and you will find me. Subscribe to that podcast. New episodes are coming out regularly on all sorts of topics. The other way you can hear from me is absolutely on LinkedIn. I am super active on LinkedIn. I love to hear from folks.
  
  hit up my DMs, ask me your questions, tell me where you're at in your career, where you're trying to get, what you're stuck on. I can't help but connect and have conversations. And of course, if you're curious about the programs that we've talked about today, the Sprint program for the job search, the Scale program for the first 90 days, and the Shine program for the messy middle, the next promotion, the growth, and the current role, then you can check me out at jesscherlock.com. Again, three S's.
  
  and hit get started or go to slash apply to check out the three programs. I'd love if you book a call. I'd love to chat and see how I can help.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (01:28:20.15)
  In addition to AFTER THE CERT, which of course is short for after the certification, but AFTER THE CERT, helping product managers get unstuck. this new pod, I love it by the way. already I told you, was listening, I was five minutes into episode one and called you like, this is so good. Yes. This is right. So good. So you have a podcast, you have the blog.
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:28:25.213)
  Mm-hmm.
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:28:37.181)
  In tears, as always. Teary. Teary Blair.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (01:28:48.418)
  You will also have a really great email program.
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:28:52.497)
  Yes. Yeah, an insider's email where I can't help but share what I'm hearing, share tips, check in with you on your career growth. My goal is to be very accessible, whether you're a client right now or not. I want to be a part of your career long-term. And yeah, my email list is a great way to stay in touch with me. I send out weekly emails with all sorts of helpful information about product career growth.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (01:29:01.282)
  Thank
  
  Blair Presley Bone (01:29:19.042)
  Yeah, yeah. So if you are on the fence, we strongly encourage you to go explore the programs, see where you fit. If you're unsure of where you fit, it's okay. DM Jess, she'll take care of you. It is an honor personally for me to get to know you and to pass the baton of sprint and scale into such worthy hands. You know, it's not like you're a newbie.
  
  Right, like you were doing this just for, you know, more established PMs. Like this is your space. We were walking this path as you put it together, just literally on other sides, opposite sides of the country. But you were so capable and I'm really excited for the clients who get to experience your mentorship. And I really love the things that you're doing with Sprint Scale. Like major, major kudos to you.
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:30:13.777)
  Yeah, I can't thank you enough for your mentorship. It's been behind the scenes certainly, but I have grown so much and learned so much from what you already had in these programs that has already, by leaps and bounds, improved some of the things I already had in the community and in my existing programs. So our next business, we will have to start it together. But in the meantime, these came together just a few years, you know, after we maybe should have.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (01:30:43.31)
  I know, I know, just a little behind the time, but everything in due time. Is there anything I'm forgetting? I'm gonna go with my question. This is like my common question that I ask when I'm doing due diligence or even in an interview, but is there something I'm not asking that I should have? What am I forgetting?
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:31:06.055)
  You know, I am actually wondering for folks who are wondering what you're up to.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (01:31:13.022)
  me? Now the summer is little to nothing, right? I know it's the benefit of academia where I have the summer to rest and take naps. Some of the time, what am I up to? I just wrapped up the school year. So literally now students are taking finals. So I won't start.
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:31:14.714)
  Yeah!
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:31:19.449)
  Ugh, what a poke.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (01:31:41.454)
  teaching product management again into the fall. Very excited for that. Students will be, they don't know this yet, but students will be spending the semester creating their own ideas and practicing being a real product manager for the fall semester. I'll be looking for guest speakers for the course. Lucky for me, I have a bevy of people that I can reach out to just.
  
  This is FYI, you're at the top of my list. I should tell you, I think it's an eight o'clock class, so it's really early. Love you, Mina. Yes. Yes.
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:32:13.917)
  8 East Coast?
  
  Mountain time for those of you who don't know I'm in Colorado. I was just pulling all nighter that night I guess. Is it on camera? Is it on camera?
  
  Blair Presley Bone (01:32:20.558)
  you
  
  I'm just, I'm just gonna put out there now. Totally on camera, it's better than being in person, huh? I'm just giving you like three months notice that I will leave you at 6, 10 a.m. this fall, Mel. Mm-hmm. Did you see what I did there?
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:32:32.177)
  I don't know about that. In person you could come drag me.
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:32:39.953)
  Yeah
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:32:44.509)
  It's almost like you've learned me in this time. I did. For those of you who don't know, we are recording. Well, yeah, you wouldn't know. We recorded this at 10 a.m. on a Friday. We started at 10, 15, because I needed a few more minutes. just, I'm not, morning, mornings are quiet. I don't see why we've got to get up and rush.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (01:33:01.868)
  Yes, to be honest, this is my first time teaching in the eight o'clock class and Lord help me because I don't really know.
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:33:12.221)
  You're gonna have the whole day though. That's the cool thing is like you're done. It's not even lunchtime.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (01:33:16.43)
  No, literally, my last class ended at like 12.35. It's amazing. It's amazing. I'm very grateful for this phase of life. But anyhow, what am I doing? I am... I am...
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:33:21.789)
  Hmm.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (01:33:33.922)
  Working on this class, continuing to take or to teach product and sales classes at the university, which I love, but taking a bit of a rest this summer from active teaching. I am diving back into some research. So I have a couple of research projects that we talked about with this rotation, which has since been published, which I'm excited about. But I have some other research projects that I am collaborating on for the summer that I'll have a space to do that.
  
  also related to career advancement and barriers thereof. So that's happening in the background. I'm slated to do some speaking. I'd like to do some more guest speaking. I have an event in the fall where I'll be discussing the dissertation, actually be discussing the research related to career advancement and product by gender. So those are some of the things I'm working on. you know what else?
  
  In this process of the transition and working with you a ton, I realized that I really love helping people to scale in and mature businesses. So taking a couple niche clients in that space to help for those who are like, hey, I've been in business for two to three years. I feel like I'm kind of hitting a brick wall. Or I want to position my business for sale. How do I do it? I know you just did it, Blair. How can I do the same thing?
  
  That is some of the work that I do. that's what I'm focused on, and taking naps, peddling with my schnauzers, and reading for joy again. That's the greatest.
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:35:14.609)
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you are forever in my community and my circle. And I dread the day where we don't exchange at least one 12-minute voice memo a week.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (01:35:27.63)
  Cheers!
  
  This is going to be good. Let me get comfy in the bed, my feet together because I know this is going to be so good.
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:35:35.42)
  Mm-hmm.
  
  I get for anyone who's thinking about getting some business coaching from Blair, just wait until you get the sleepy Blair voice memo. She really has some of her best breakthroughs right about bedtime. She slurs her words a bit. She might be half asleep, but that state of what's it called when you're that lucid dreaming state really produces insightful moments that will transform your business. They certainly have for me and
  
  Blair Presley Bone (01:35:45.422)
  Yes.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (01:35:59.487)
  Yeah.
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:36:06.535)
  But all jokes aside, I will forever be grateful not just for your trust in me to take things over, but also the unending confidence, support, energy, and optimism that you showed to me during the times when, I mean, it was hard, it was scary, it was new. This was very different type of business than what I had been doing before.
  
  And I couldn't have nor would I have wanted to go through this transition without you. And I joke about never letting you go, but truly, I always want you to be playing a role in my life professionally and otherwise. So it's been an absolute pleasure. Good, good.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (01:36:53.006)
  You're stuck with me.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (01:37:00.174)
  This feels like a really interesting book and on the pod I'm not gonna get sentimental but Maybe I am because it's still me Yeah, because this I don't want to say is my last episode but this is my last episode that I have planned I Started this pod. I don't know three years ago four years ago time. What is time but maybe three ish
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:37:11.567)
  And I mean, I think you might.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (01:37:29.75)
  Years ago and I wasn't sure That I was going to do it I sat on it for a while before I launched it I'm like there's a world made another pod does this need to be discussed? And I'm not even a podcast girly. So like what am I even doing? But if there's just something here That just kind of sat on my chest of like do it do it do it scared and just freaking do the thing and I'm really glad that I did because I was able to
  
  highlight people who had done amazing things in product. I was able to learn a lot from people, as guests on the show, was able to provide information to people who needed it as accessibly as possible. Yeah, I'm glad that ProductManageHer existed. It was designed to be a resource for women in product. However, I've learned that these same challenges exist for
  
  a lot of people, right? There are a lot of people who don't identify as women who would reach out to me to say like, when's the next pod episode? I really want to learn this. I've been to the whole thing and I am dying to know more about your perspective on this thing, right? So that kind of felt like a small measure of success. And as this product coach era for me is coming to a close,
  
  It feels apropos to, you know, pass this baton on to. So guess I would say product manager is going to flow. Like I'm happy to pay the bills so that this can still be hosted on the internet for people to have the resource. But for those who listened and enjoyed and found this as a helpful part of their development, I think AFTER THE CERT.
  
  is it. So I think this is this may be my bookend. If it comes back, it's going to be in a different form. That's for sure. And I think I think that this episode will in and of itself will have a special place in my heart. And I am so glad to kind of to close it here with you.
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:39:50.269)
  Yeah. Thanks for having me. I hope I see all of you on AFTER THE CERT And if there are outstanding requests that you have or know of, let me know Blair. Or if anyone listening wishes there was a topic Blair would have hit on, let me know. I'll give it a go.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (01:40:06.828)
  Mm-hmm. And if you want me make that song unavailable, because I'm off for the summer, bring me on AFTER THE CERT as a big surprise, okay?
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:40:08.847)
  I love it. Heck yeah! Heck-
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:40:16.733)
  all right, more to come, more to come.
  
  Blair Presley Bone (01:40:21.998)
  Thank you so much Jess. It's a pleasure.
  
  Jess Sherlock (01:40:24.733)
  Thank you, Blair.

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